Kiesel Fires Back at Gibson! (Video)

InkblotNebula

Member
Messages
1,168
A lot of these frivolous hand-slap lawsuits would probably go away if lawmakers started forcing the plaintiff party to pay the defendant's legal fees if the defendant wins.
Our corporate overlords would never allow something so sensible to be implemented.
 

guitargeek6298

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
3,223
Thanks, I appreciate that reminder of why I hadn't pulled the trigger before. :beer
I dunno, I bought a Carvin ST300 with a Floyd, the guitar was perfect and I had zero issues with the process. My build was pretty simple though.

I had read some reports of poor customer service before I ordered, but decided to order anyways and I'm glad I did; it's now my best playing and main guitar.
 

76_Futura

Member
Messages
142
Fender has been absolutely crushing Gibson for years on attracting young players.
As someone who has been giving guitar lessons for many years, I can provide you with some feedback based on my experiences only. Most of my students are high-schoolers. Currently, I have five guitar students, but in the past I've had twice that many at any given time. Fenders and Squiers are quite popular with my students. Lower-model Ibanezes are, too.

The only Gibson player I've taught over the last few years owns a hand-me-down acoustic. Just prior to that, one of my students had an '01 or '02 Gibson Custom LP, and another had a Studio with robot tuners. Both guitars had major tuning problems, and both students were frustrated. (According to some people on here, the G-string stays perfectly in tune on all Gibsons, but that has not been my experience at all.) The kid with the Custom ended up selling it and getting an ESP LP, which he still has.

I used to get lots of requests to teach Guns and Roses songs, but not anymore. As much as I respect and admire Slash's playing, I don't think a lot of today's guitar-playing teens know much about him and how he created loads of enthusiasm for Les Pauls thirty years ago. Many of them just want something inexpensive and reliable. (Once again, I'm basing my theories on my own observations.)
 

Ampegasaur

Member
Messages
3,632
This is a tough one, They are both 2 companies I am not a fan of. Gibson has the cool factor, the heritage, and do make some nice guitars when you find one without issues. Kiesel has improved their image somewhat, Jeff is not someone I would want to deal with. Been some really shady stuff in the past, and way too much drama. The guitars are what they are, and fit a more niche market, with generic overtones. They make some pretty guitars, and their price point is better than the good Gibsons. Resale on Kiesel is not so good if you don't bond long term. Thy also really appeal to 2 very different markets. Kiesel will always be a lower tier, just the way it is.
 
Messages
3,931
This whole thing is so funny to me. If Gibson took 1/4th of the money they waste on all this frivolous nonsense and sunk that into making quality guitars, they wouldn't be in this position and wouldn't have to pad their pockets by bullying other companies with ridiculous reaching lawsuits and threats. But they're not going to do that, which is why they'll remain a laughing stock among guitar players for years to come.
Thread.

How about if we look at all of this and shrug "well, I like playing them so..."?

My SG I bought last year is a great tool that has been very useful to me. I like the way it plays, the way it feels, and the way it sounds. That was why I bought it. It has quite a few flaws, but I like that about it; they make it mine.

I'm tired of my choices in guitars having to be seen as some sort of statement. I just want to play guitars because I like them :dunno
I get it & that's fine, but they're not getting my money. Plenty of used LPs & 335s at reputable dealers.

Sorta picking cherries aren't we?
I think he resonated with "Play Authentic" while it left us cold.

The only Gibson I'd go for is a ES-339 and they don't make them in lefty... so F 'em.

Does Gibson even bother to make full-body jazz boxes anymore? I didn't see any on their website. Guess they decided to spend that production capacity on more bluejean fade color LPs... The kids sure love those soon-to-be collectables!!
I'm glad I learned to play, righty.;) I hear Ibanez makes a good Jazz Box. I'd like a Scofield model.
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/24827-john-scofield-connects-the-dots

I was actually one of the artists 'er' influencers that was brought in for the Gibson Robot beta test. . . and I couldn't have been more disappointed after I butchered it in front of the R&D team. It was horrible. . . and it did NOT even work through the 'tuning' test. I couldn't believe what I was looking at, and that was the point where I just took a step back and realized that capitalists were winning over guitars at that company.

Love what Jeff was saying, hope they make their way out of this relatively unscathed.

What that guy brought up EP, though. . . dunno. Totally different garbage there.
Capitalism isn't the problem.

Here's the thing that's p*ssing me off about this discussion: the assumption that because I play a Gibson, I am of a certain demographic playing a particular genre of music.

I'm a professional guitarist. I can guarantee you I have more 1099s on my desk right now from last year's jobs than half of you have pay stubs. That includes pit work, corporate work, comedy-stage house bands, church accompaniment, college jazz choruses, corporate wallpaper gigs, award shows, singer showcases and a handful of jazz-club gigs....I was booked solid for months last year. I'm presently booked through August. How many genres is that? Pretty much all of them...

BUT:

Not one. Not a single. Not even one-half of a classic-rock-laywer-bluz gig at the local sports bar or whatever the hell you assume I'm playing. Not a single "block party" or "backyard jam?" Why? Because I'm too busy, that sh*t doesn't pay, and half the time your stuck playing with people who want to make excuses for why they can't play.

My job is to create the sound music directors hire me to create. Sometimes, that means a Gibson 335. Sometimes a Tele, or a J-45, or a PRS. Sometimes through a DRRI, or a Mesa, or a plain ol' SS head. Sometimes a TS, sometimes a Rat, sometimes chorus, whatever. That's my job. The MD doesn't know what gear I should use. That's why he or she hired me. Sometimes it's even specified in the score.

So let's get off of the infantile Hulk vs. Spiderman ******** of this guitar is better or you gotta use this particular amp or people really give a sh*t about the wood on your fingerboard: the things are tools for making music. Let me say that again:

These things are tools for making music.

The level of disrespect for actual musicians here is, frankly, astounding. Insulting. Why do I use a Gibson guitar? Because sometimes, that's the right tool for the job. They're good solid instruments that work time and again. They play well and they sound good - and that's why my phone continues to ring. It's no wonder practically every pro-player that's come onto this board has given up and left. Remarkable.
Buy'm, play'm, it's cool. But I've had it with the extortion tactics. All they had to do was STFU, & build better. That's it!

Your point is well taken from me at least. I often make funny comments about tan pants, AARP, blooze lawyers, etc. and hope people take it as the gentle ribbing it's intended to be. I have no issue with players that like or own Gibsons for whatever reason.

BUUUUUUUTTTTTT.....

I think everyone should try to be conscious of the companies we do business with. Sometimes you have limited or no choice - the local utility, Google, the only big box store your small town, etc. Guitars? You have tons of choice. There are probably 20 reputable companies out there who make a LP-style guitar that's as authentic sounding and great playing as any new Gibson.

Fact is, consumer activism can and often is the only way to change corporate behavior. Papa Johns, ChickFil'et, JUUL... even Reverb just posted on TDweezil GP today saying they will roll back an anti-consumer website change they recently made. Next time you're looking to buy a Gibson or similar, just keep in mind the ONLY reason Gibson is doing this is to artificially reduce your choices and drive up prices so YOU PAY MORE.

And if you contemplate that and decide you still have to have that Gibson for whatever reason, there is always a very robust market of excellent used Gibsons. Good luck, whatever you decide.
I didn't buy tuna in the late 80s when they were catching dolphins.:(

My take on this drama is simple. It ain't the guitars fault. Play what you like and let the humans continue to swing their purses at each other.
Purses? Man, I don't even carry a wallet!:p

14 year member. He’s averaging 2 posts a day, about the same as you. :facepalm
He's triggered.
 
Messages
3,931
Gibson doesn’t care about the Kiesel V, nor do they likely expect to win. Same with the Dean suit (which was started under previous management).

However, they will have a cumulative effect - if you’re designing a new guitar, and know Gibson is litigious, you’re not going to go too close to their design. Not because you can’t legally, but because it’s going to cost you a stupid amount of money to win the case, even if you’re guaranteed to win from the outset.
That's not Kosher people!:mad::mad::mad:

Meh, you know what? I don’t care anymore. There’s so much mob mentality on both sides, and for so many different brands. I don’t keep up with what I can’t buy or where I can’t eat or what I shouldn’t drive or what I shouldn’t wear or what toilet paper I should use.

Life is too effing short. I’m not in the guitar business. I’m not friends with any of the parties on this thread. So i really don’t care.

btw here’s a bitchin Murphy R9 I just got. You should hear and play this thing. Incredible guitar, and that’s saying something since (humble brag) I already own some incredible guitars.


Like one poster said... they’re tools. And I enjoy them. There might be a business side that I may or may not approve of, but I have no dog in this fight. I just love guitars and music. They make me happy.

that said. If someone came after one of my friends in the industry, you can be damn sure I’ll defend them and take care of them, including but not limited to making buying decisions accordingly.
Buying used is cool. I'd love one of these.:cool:
https://reverb.com/item/20606340-gibson-les-paul-1959-reissue-yamano-murphy-aged

It's actually even worse than that.... Some of that money I paid out to guys I hired, so I'm basically paying their taxes unless I issue 1099s against them.

I'm hosed. Can't even think about it.
I clicked like but I really don't like it. That happened to me one year and it's happening to the wife this year. And it's a BIG chunk we have to pay. Four nice guitars big. :(
Guy's, start putting away & have 3 mouths salary at least in the bank. Then 10% every month for retirement. Buy an once of gold for every $5k saved for a hedge on inflation. If only I knew that at 30!:mad: Buy guitars to keep! Stay ahead!!:)
 

JasonElGato

Member
Messages
1,558
How about if we look at all of this and shrug "well, I like playing them so..."?

My SG I bought last year is a great tool that has been very useful to me. I like the way it plays, the way it feels, and the way it sounds. That was why I bought it. It has quite a few flaws, but I like that about it; they make it mine.

I'm tired of my choices in guitars having to be seen as some sort of statement. I just want to play guitars because I like them :dunno
For sure. I think by now, the company producing the guitar is it's own thing separate from design, materials and execution. Can't argue with the LP, SG or 335 designs. As iconic as any in existence. Even better. A well executed LP SG 335 that speaks to you. Nothing but love. OTOH, the Gibson Corporation in 2020 and the derpy shtt they continue to do? You can laugh laugh about that all day, hahah. Doesn't change the good things
 
Messages
4,930
Do some research on their "customer service" before you pull the trigger, that's the only reason I haven't.
This is my opinion/experience so take with a grain of salt but: most of the issues are way in the past and I think were the result of them growing a little too fast (I don't think I've heard any bad experiences reported in the last 1.5 years or so), and in many cases it's just a case of people online posting their side of the story (which of course is just one side of it). Honestly when I read them some of those stories seemed a little far-fetched (some guy said one of their salespeople told him his guitar won't be shipping for a while because they had to "steal parts off of it for another guitar for NAMM" or something like that...they stock all their parts in house so I find it hard to believe they'd be stealing a tuner or a bridge off a completed customer build. Seems like nonsense even though it of course turned into a multi-page thread. Another person claimed they took double the amount for a deposit that they were supposed to take...can't imagine that happened, and if it did I'm pretty positive they'd issue a quick refund to correct the issue and not just keep more of someone's money than they legally in writing agreed to take.

People nowadays just get upset at something and write a nonsense review, you see it every single day on Yelp where people come drunk to a restaurant and are refused more alcohol and then write a one star review saying they found a dead rat in their soup :).

I've dealt with just about everyone at Kiesel at this point and they've all been awesome, Jeff included. Reached out for spec sheets for used builds I purchased too (aka situations where Kiesel got $0 of my money) and they were always quickly provided. Also worth noting that there are a couple of threads started by people re: bad customer service at Kiesel and they've sold thousands and thousands of instruments.

I'm not saying there haven't been issues in the past, but just that I have never experienced one and neither have any of the multitude of people I know personally who ordered customs. Can only speak for my own experience and that of friends who are fellow Kiesel owners, but that's where I'm at with it.
 
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mojah

Member
Messages
520
A lot of these frivolous hand-slap lawsuits would probably go away if lawmakers started forcing the plaintiff party to pay the defendant's legal fees if the defendant wins.
Well it can happen, esp with bad faith lawsuits:
The Lanham Act §1117(a) allows recovery of a reasonable attorney’s fee only on evidence The court in exceptional cases may award reasonable attorney fees to the prevailing party. Most circuits follow the test announced by the Supreme Court in Octane Fitness, LLC v. ICON Health & Fitness, Inc., 134 S. Ct. 1749 (2014) “[t]he court in exceptional cases may award reasonable attorney fees to the prevailing party. … an ‘exceptional’ case is simply one that stands out from others with respect to the substantive strength of a party’s litigating position … or the unreasonable manner in which the case was litigated …, considering the totality of the circumstances.” 134 S. Ct. at 1756.15 U.S.C.
 

CJReaper

Member
Messages
2,034
This is my opinion/experience so take with a grain of salt but: most of the issues are way in the past and I think were the result of them growing a little too fast (I don't think I've heard any bad experiences reported in the last 1.5 years or so), and in many cases it's just a case of people online posting their side of the story (which of course is just one side of it). Honestly when I read them some of those stories seemed a little far-fetched (some guy said one of their salespeople told him his guitar won't be shipping for a while because they had to "steal parts off of it for another guitar for NAMM" or something like that...they stock all their parts in house so I find it hard to believe they'd be stealing a tuner or a bridge off a completed customer build. Seems like nonsense even though it of course turned into a multi-page thread. Another person claimed they took double the amount for a deposit that they were supposed to take...can't imagine that happened, and if it did I'm pretty positive they'd issue a quick refund to correct the issue and not just keep more of someone's money than they legally in writing agreed to take.

People nowadays just get upset at something and write a nonsense review, you see it every single day on Yelp where people come drunk to a restaurant and are refused more alcohol and then write a one star review saying they found a dead rat in their soup :).

I've dealt with just about everyone at Kiesel at this point and they've all been awesome, Jeff included. Reached out for spec sheets for used builds I purchased too (aka situations where Kiesel got $0 of my money) and they were always quickly provided. Also worth noting that there are a couple of threads started by people re: bad customer service at Kiesel and they've sold thousands and thousands of instruments.

I'm not saying there haven't been issues in the past, but just that I have never experienced one and neither have any of the multitude of people I know personally who ordered customs. Can only speak for my own experience and that of friends who are fellow Kiesel owners, but that's where I'm at with it.
I don't doubt your experience at all, and I have heard plenty of others like it. It's just that I've heard so many that went the other way for issues that should have been no problem to resolve that it really makes me cautious. Jeff's attitude and some of the things he say's in the live videos definitely make me think that the complaints may be very valid. I haven't heard of any major issues in the last year or so either so I hope they have turned things around in the CS department as far as consistency goes.
 

Hawk3y3

Member
Messages
190
Your point is well taken from me at least. I often make funny comments about tan pants, AARP, blooze lawyers, etc. and hope people take it as the gentle ribbing it's intended to be. I have no issue with players that like or own Gibsons for whatever reason.

BUUUUUUUTTTTTT.....

I think everyone should try to be conscious of the companies we do business with. Sometimes you have limited or no choice - the local utility, Google, the only big box store your small town, etc. Guitars? You have tons of choice. There are probably 20 reputable companies out there who make a LP-style guitar that's as authentic sounding and great playing as any new Gibson.

Fact is, consumer activism can and often is the only way to change corporate behavior. Papa Johns, ChickFil'et, JUUL... even Reverb just posted on TGP today saying they will roll back an anti-consumer website change they recently made. Next time you're looking to buy a Gibson or similar, just keep in mind the ONLY reason Gibson is doing this is to artificially reduce your choices and drive up prices so YOU PAY MORE.

And if you contemplate that and decide you still have to have that Gibson for whatever reason, there is always a very robust market of excellent used Gibsons. Good luck, whatever you decide.
people often forget that the greatest power they have in the market place is where and how you spend your money. You don’t like the ethics of a company, direct your money elsewhere and tell others why you are doing it. How and who you spend your money with is arguably the most potent form of protest you can exercise
 






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