Kiesel Sends Cease & Desist to Harley Benton

Discussion in 'Guitars in General' started by mrilo, Feb 27, 2020.

  1. mrilo

    mrilo Member

    Messages:
    48
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2016
    so Gibson sends one to Kiesel and now he returns the favor to Harley Benton over the Osiris. This come from the kiesel live FB post last night

    Some differences involved is that Kiesel has an active design patent on the Osiris, and I will say it is very close, but still rubs me the wrong way, heck the CS and LP are close. You go to the HB site and they clearly do not give a crap about knocking off designs, and based on recent IP rulings in the EU I am not sure Kiesel has a case there. Heck you can make a case all headless stuff is derived from Steinberger's early designs

    I am of the camp to let your quality and cs drive your sales and reputation and not the lawyers, oh well, I get it is a business an have to protect stuff too. I like my kiesel's, fenders, gibsons music mans, surh's, schecter, prs.. I just like guitars and want to play them all, and the ones that get played the most are based on quality and tone and not name on headstock.

    Kiesel Osiris
    [​IMG]

    Harley Benton Dullahan
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
    fretless, will132, Gibson Dog and 4 others like this.
  2. Jon Silberman

    Jon Silberman 10Q Jerry & Dickey Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    40,395
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    Northern VA
    Funny how the circle is a wheel ...
     
  3. B Money

    B Money Member

    Messages:
    5,791
    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2007
    It'll be interesting to see what exactly is "patented" about the Osiris design. Is it the scoop behind the bridge that allows easier access to the tuners? At first look there really doesn't seem to be anything wildly unique about the Osiris, but I'm no expert on patent law.
     
    hookakat1, uab9253, MaxTwang and 3 others like this.
  4. Drew816

    Drew816 Member

    Messages:
    4,817
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Location:
    Raccoon City
    So they complain and complain about this happening to them and then they do the same thing to someone else? Did I miss something? ;)
     
    Solo996, gerg6, hookakat1 and 10 others like this.
  5. Average Joe

    Average Joe Member

    Messages:
    11,342
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Location:
    On a chair, behind a desk
    IF the patent is valid and significant to the case I think there is a big difference between protecting it vs Gibson trying to enforce a design they didn't seek to register until their design had been a generic industry standard for decades.

    If Kiesel have a valid point in the case, and has protected their intellectual property from day one, then it's fair game. Unlike Gibson
     
    guff, NicDo, bluwoodsman and 35 others like this.
  6. CjRuckus

    CjRuckus Member

    Messages:
    720
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2006
    Well this is a M Knight level plot twist

    Gonna send one to a CnC machine brb
     
  7. singlecutarmy

    singlecutarmy Member

    Messages:
    1,176
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2018
    That's pretty much a carbon copy.

    I do feel like guitar sales should be based on quality and not holding a shape hostage to their brand but that's really just personal feelings on it, and if I was a guitar manufacturer with an original design I'm not sure I'd feel that same.

    But we also face the fact that the shape of a guitar is based on ergonomics and playability. A les paul is one of the most basic "guitar" shapes because it makes sense, not so much some unique engineering design. It's an acoustic shape, shrunk down, with a cutaway, because that shape allows you to rest it on your leg, have proper upper-fret access and look symmetrically balanced.

    If you try to say that only Gibson has rights to a figure 8 solid body guitar with a cutaway, they could mark whatever price they want on it to set the bar of entry and no one else could make one of the most sensible guitar shapes.

    There's a certain point where allowing silhouette copyrights would be like allowing whoever invented the first SUV to claim the general shape of a mid-sized vehicle with an extended cabin and four wheel drive and no one else could make one.

    Logos, headstocks, and finer details make sense to me, things that "mark" a brand. But the silhouette of a guitar body, if you were to just take it and make a shadow of it, I think is kind of extreme.
     
    GreatGreen, RomanS, uab9253 and 6 others like this.
  8. shred4Him

    shred4Him Member

    Messages:
    196
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    I don't own any Kiesels, so I have no dog in the fight. My first thought when I saw the Harley Bentons was that it was a Kiesel until I saw the text about it being a new Harley Benton model. When you study more closely, you can spot the differences, but I do see how a regular consumer could be confused about what they are getting. Will be interesting to see where this goes.
     
  9. LaXu

    LaXu Member

    Messages:
    4,819
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2004
    Location:
    Finland
    Agreed.

    That said, I don't see any innovation here. The shape of the guitar is your basic Strat. Body contours are not necessarily unique enough. You have to take out that part of the body to install a headless bridge anyway and Mayones Hydra did it well before Kiesel. To me this should have not been granted a patent in the first place but if they do have one, they have a valid reason to sue to protect the patent.

    Remember that what applies in law is not necessarily what makes sense from ethics, common sense or morality perspective. They have a patent they are obligated to defend so they don't end up like Gibson or Fender. Just like Rickenbacker does.
     
    Route234, lizardking and Average Joe like this.
  10. Blanket Jackson

    Blanket Jackson is Tio's favorite Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    15,345
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2009
    Location:
    Brooklyn NY
    If the Gibson don't get you then the Keisel will
     
  11. Jon Silberman

    Jon Silberman 10Q Jerry & Dickey Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    40,395
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    Northern VA
    You have outdone yourself here with your superb parody lyric! :bow
     
  12. poppunk

    poppunk Member

    Messages:
    364
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2019
    Businesses are going to try to do what they think is best for their business. Protection of intellectual property is a prime motivator.

    I don't really get all gaga or hateful for corporations, businesses, whatever, making pretty much anything including guitars. You see enough stuff on the internet about Gibson being evil or whatever, but what they're doing isn't surprising. The arguments that the negative press may not be worth their actions have merit, but the idea that they are unusually brutal regarding their corporate ways isn't realistic.

    Kiesel is smaller and spun off of a company that's been making guitars since the middle of the previous century. But they're not some altruistic organization that really cares about musicians while Gibson is just some giant evil corporation. They're different sizes with different market impacts, but if you gave the Kiesel people the market access and history Gibson has, they're not going to be much different.

    I really like my EBMMs, but I'm not going to go to bat for a smaller guitar maker on the internet over some corporate warfare. Is it cool that Ernie Ball has stayed in the family and is privately held and they seem to really like doing guitar stuff? Yes. But when push comes to shove these people are going to do what's best for the business, not me. It's transactional.

    My two SGs don't make me love nor hate Gibson. They're just tools I bought when it made since and I'm happy with them.
     
    uab9253, Jabberwocky, B Money and 2 others like this.
  13. changeling

    changeling Member

    Messages:
    1,732
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2006
    Location:
    ...where the strings come in.
    I saw a disputation coming in theory,but I didn’t think it would come in practice, since the Harley Benton line is manufactured in s.e. Asia?
    Hell yeah it looks like an Osiris,to me,anyway.
    I was gonna order one,but they’re out til May,I think.
    How realistic is a cease and desist across international borders?
     
  14. ArtDecade

    ArtDecade Member

    Messages:
    2,029
    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Location:
    Twangsylvania
    Business is business.
     
  15. LolainNB

    LolainNB Member

    Messages:
    364
    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2019
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Brian Johnston

    Brian Johnston Member

    Messages:
    2,181
    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    No confusion... HB is a very good buy at 1/3 the cost of Kiesel. Never played a HB (heard good things for the money), but did have two Kiesels (which I sold).
     
  17. griggsterr

    griggsterr Supporting Member

    Messages:
    6,544
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2014
    Location:
    Midwest
    Sad thing for sure. I bet Harley benton was in danger of selling maybe 50 of those every 2.5 years. Seeing as how Kiesel probably sells that many every 5 years. :)
     
  18. singlecutarmy

    singlecutarmy Member

    Messages:
    1,176
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2018
    Most people could NEVER tell those apart without the logo
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice