Kiesel Sends Cease & Desist to Harley Benton

Discussion in 'Guitars in General' started by mrilo, Feb 27, 2020.

  1. MKB

    MKB Silver Supporting Member

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    It's possible that someone might buy a HB to get what they really want (the Kiesel) and pocket savings. But I bet if they played both, they'd reconsider. The HB's are good guitars for the money, but you DO get what you pay for. I would be shocked if the HB was anywhere near the Kiesel in feel, playability or tone.
     
  2. guitarbilly74

    guitarbilly74 Supporting Member

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    Which is owned by Gibson. :D

    Oh the irony.

    But seriously, just play what you like and let the lawyers play their silly games. They're the only ones who benefit from it at the end of the day, since no matter who wins or loses, lawyers get paid.
     
    Pidgin English and mrilo like this.
  3. derekd

    derekd Supporting Member

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    I guess it all depends on whether or not Kiesel has copyrighted those designs.

    We know Gibson let too much time lapse before attempting to do so, which has weakened their stance when taking companies to court in the past such as PRS.

    It is probably more cut and dried (as much as IP law gets) when you have a patent in hand rather than trying to develop one after the fact.
     
  4. Benz2112

    Benz2112 Supporting Member

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    If there is indeed a patent regarding a design element, then it would be a very clear infringement claim. If it is some kind of trademark claim similar to Gibson's claim against PRS, then it is hypocritical on their part. Jeff has made public statements about applying for and receiving patents for certain technologies, such as the pole piece arrangement on their Lithium pickups. Patents and trademark are two completely different areas of IP that get conflated often, and for all we know, a small design change can bring it into compliance.
     
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  5. Benny

    Benny Gold Supporting Member

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    I haven't seen the actual letter, so I might be off-base. Kiesel's webpage lists a number of its current patents and pending applications at the very bottom of the page: https://www.kieselguitars.com/privacy/

    Interesting that the Kiesel webpage lists U.S. Design Patent No. D844,693 for both the Osiris guitar and Zeus guitar, as to my eye, the claimed portion of U.S. Design Patent No. D844,694 seems to be more on point for the Osiris model (https://patents.google.com/patent/USD844694S1/).
     
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  6. aleclee

    aleclee TGP Tech Wrangler Staff Member

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    Surprised Kiesel ever did any design work that was novel enough to gain protection. I'd say that they've been a "trend follower" (to put it kindly) with the exception of a handful of models.
     
    FiestaRed, xzacx, hippieboy and 3 others like this.
  7. aynirar27

    aynirar27 Notable Member Gold Supporting Member

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    This is great fodder for another totally uninteresting episode of the guitologist
     
  8. indeedido

    indeedido Supporting Member

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    Burn Kiesel! They're a witch! TGP pitchforks out. Booooo. Hissssss. :mmm:noevil:red:puh:fisticuffs:clips
     
    aynirar27 likes this.
  9. Jaguar

    Jaguar Member

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    I'm gonna sue everyone who ever designed a six-stringer.

    PS. The original six-stringer named SUE :omg
     
  10. Guitarworks

    Guitarworks Member

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    Someday, original guitar designs will have no choice but to be either so fugly that no one will even dream of laying claim to them ever, or be so deliberately and grossly inconsistent that the acts of defending or prosecuting them in court will both be rendered a legal impossibility.
     
  11. ntotoro

    ntotoro Member

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    "Dudebro... you like totally copied my copy of a copy of a copied guitar... I'm gonna' sue you and ****, even though I just railed on another company for it... "
     
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  12. Less Paule

    Less Paule Member

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    I own a Carvin CS6 and it's an extremely nice guitar. I don't agree with ANY of the cease and desist or lawsuits over "shapes" and/or designs of a freakin guitar. Whoever can take that shape or design and improve quality, along with price point should be allowed to do so.

    I'm waiting for Betty Crocker to claim ownership of the shape of the conventional cake. Instead of improving, embellishing and finding ways to do this AND have reasonable price points, companies are now VICTIMS. They need to cease and desist on being bitches and get with the program........
     
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  13. hunter

    hunter Supporting Member

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    Yep, important to distinguish between patent, copyright and trademark. And trade dress. A distinction being largely missed it seems. It would be hard to patent the general body shape but I could see some rationale for granting a patent for the scoop at the bridge based on function. If that is a feature addressed in the patent? HB has infringed. On the patent. Until the patent expires. Then anyone can use that feature.
     
    mojah, estrago1 and Benz2112 like this.
  14. guitarman_nebr

    guitarman_nebr Member

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    Check out the video on YouTube by the Guitologist. It is long and a bit boring, but Jeff Kiesel explains in detail how to approach these patent infringements and why some are valid and others are not. All the info you need is out there...you just have to dig a little.

     
  15. chrisjnyc

    chrisjnyc Supporting Member

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    The HB is not that clone; the headstock is different, top and bottom horns, knob placement, bolt on type, and bridge are all a bit different from the Kiesel.
     
  16. ntotoro

    ntotoro Member

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    In all fairness, I think I'll pass on getting my legal advice from Jeff Kiesel. He has no more a case than Gibson.
     
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  17. Toby Krebs

    Toby Krebs Member

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    OMG! That’s Horrible! Whatever shall we doo doo lol!
     
  18. Bob Maximus

    Bob Maximus Silver Supporting Member

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    and thus a legal feeding frenzy...Martin soon to sue Taylor because Lebowitz Law firm recommends.
     
  19. 2Plus2isChicken

    2Plus2isChicken Member

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    I think all these China-based companies that have American-sounding names are funny. Is there an actual guy named Harley Benton who owns this company? I doubt it. I'd also like to meet Mr. Mooer.
     
  20. ieso

    ieso Member

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    3rd order simulacra
     

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