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Kiesel Sends Cease & Desist to Harley Benton

AltecGreen

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
1,186
I think all these China-based companies that have American-sounding names are funny. Is there an actual guy named Harley Benton who owns this company? I doubt it. I'd also like to meet Mr. Mooer.
Uh....Harley Benton is the house brand for Thomann, a German company.
 

shred4Him

Member
Messages
200
No confusion... HB is a very good buy at 1/3 the cost of Kiesel. Never played a HB (heard good things for the money), but did have two Kiesels (which I sold).
Awesome. I don't doubt your experience. I didn't say all people would be confused. If you are on here, you are part of the more informed guitar buying crowd. You are someone who gets into the details. I was referring to the more general guitar buying public. Now, Kiesel's sales model makes it difficult to be confused during a new purchase but I could see situations where someone not in-the-know could be fooled on a used purchase. However, that could easily be offset by doing a basic amount of research. I don't see HB as being egregious thieves. I was just commenting on how similar they looked to me at first glance and that some of the more average guitar buyers could be fooled.
 

msquared

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
371
In all fairness, I think I'll pass on getting my legal advice from Jeff Kiesel. He has no more a case than Gibson.
Kiesel would likely not be bothering with this if he didn't have specific advice from a lawyer.

I didn't watch the video and I'm not a laywer, but the way that this works in the real world is that if you see that your trademark (it's not a patent, those are handled differently) is being violated and you do not actively enforce it, that lack of action can be interpreted as de facto permission for other companies to use it with impunity. Companies like Gibson do not maintain legal teams so that they can be mean spirited jerks to small companies, they do it because the law is structured in such a way that it is a necessity.

This whole situation is not the shot across the bow that it comes off as, either on the part of Gibson or Kiesel. It's just everyday business. They are covering their backs, nothing more.
 

ArtDecade

Member
Messages
2,144
Ibanez is actually named after a real person.
Again, you missed the point. The name has nothing to do with the company. The actual Ibanez was never in any way associated with the Japanese guitar manufacturer. There could be a dude named Harley Benton that has nothing to do with the distributor. Why are you so hung up on the name?
 

EtaCarinae

Member
Messages
1,404
Hot take: I am not mad at Kiesel for sending this to Thomann (who owns the brand Harley Benton)

Hotter take: I am also not mad at Gibson for sending this to Kiesel. It's not about stopping Kiesel, it's about stopping others.

Super spicy hot take: I'm not even mad for the apparent contradiction of Kiesel doing the thing they complained about. It's just business. Publicizing the Gibson thing was good PR. Trying to stop the competitor from selling something that looks essentially identical is smart business, too.

Buckle up and get ready to get mad at me take: I am tired of seeing the same 3 shapes on 90% of guitars. There are better designs out there. Let's see more of them. If only the stodgy among us were not trying to make everything look and sound like it did when they were kids.

:)
 

msquared

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
371
Again, you missed the point. The name has nothing to do with the company. The actual Ibanez was never in any way associated with the Japanese guitar manufacturer. There could be a dude named Harley Benton that has nothing to do with the distributor. Why are you so hung up on the name?
Again? This is the first time I posted about it.

Why are you so hung up on this?

As an aside, if you aren't okay with people being pedantic, it's possible that the Internet is not for you.
 
Messages
962
Who is Harley Benton the person, though? If there isn't one, why name the company Harley Benton? I find that kind of silly.

In case you haven't guessed, I don't particularly take the brand seriously as a guitar company.
 

ArtDecade

Member
Messages
2,144
Again? This is the first time I posted about it.

Why are you so hung up on this?

As an aside, if you aren't okay with people being pedantic, it's possible that the Internet is not for you.
Mate, that comment wasn't even directed at you. Maybe if you can't figure out how forums work, it's possible the Internet is not for you.
 

egregion

Member
Messages
548
Im glad Kiesel is doing this. Im tired of HB. Im tired of all the internet shills raving about how amazing some $200 import is. I'm tired of HB blatantly ripping off designs of original models. And im not talking about strats and les pauls. Things like the Pete Thorn signature model and the Guthie Goven signature model. But mostly im tired of the Harley Benton shills. HB is like the mike bloomberg of the guitar world: flood the internet with ads no one wants to see.
 

stevieboy

Clouds yell at me
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
37,410
Most of the people on TGP really have no idea what they're taking about when it comes to the legal ins and outs of trademarks. Or rather, they do have some idea--just enough to think they know when they really don't. Just the fact that some have used the term "patent" is pretty revealing.

And I fully admit that I'm one of those, as I've learned in years of watching some of this stuff unfold, starting when Fender was trying to get control of their body shapes. It all seemed pretty simple to me, but every time I read about a case I'd see that it was more and more complicated. In the Gibson PRS single cut case, for example, the outcome was what I thought it would be, but then I read the details of the ruling, and the points it made were way different than what I expected. That's when I decided to turn in Junior Super Copyright Lawyer badge, and just sit back and watch.

I know this isn't going to stop anyone from going on about who has what rights, but I suspect most of our opinions are based on stuff that people no more qualified than we are have said on the internet and we read it. And you know what they say about things you read on the internet!

Sure, we're going to talk about it. But I think some could stand to recognize their possible fallibility on complicated legal issues.
 
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mikesch

Platinum Supporting Member
Double Platinum Member
Messages
578
A design patent is different than a patent, it's entirely about the look of something and not the functionality. Kiesel did patent the look of the Osiris and at least one of the Harley Bentons is a pretty clear copy of it. HB is free to start making copies in 2033 and selling them in the US. I'm guessing in the end that HB will still be allowed to make them and just not import them to the US for sale.
 




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