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Korg Dl8000 VS PCM80 advice

Javiceres

Member
Messages
504
Hi there!
I'll appreciate every piece of advice.
I've been offered both a Korg DL8000R for 250 and a Lexicon PCM80 for 445.
I'm not sure what to do ...!

I'm keen on modulated arrays of delays, pseudo reverb and reverb FX. Huge and lush ambients, freezing sounds/tails is a BIG bonus for me, both in delays and verbs.

SOS loops are nice to have and size matters (wich leads me to the Korg).

I missed both opportunities to both units in the past consecutively...

On the other hand I already have a TimeFactor (too beat up to be sold) and Standard H9 (I take it everywhere) which could be maxed for 199 quid until day 14... Then it'll be 398.

Buying the Lex implies selling a Deluxe Memory Man 550 TT wich is great for dirty analog stuff... But if the LFO of the PCM is fast enough I might use them for FM and pseudo ring modulation to add dirt to some delay lines, dirt is a bonus for me (when pristine is put of question)...

The perspective of a Pitch card for the 80 is very cool but I guess not very likely...

What do you guys think :)?
 
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JMMP1

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
885
If money is no issue, I'd buy the Dl8000. But JMMP! That is the cheaper one?

Well, the DL8000 has one very great delay structure. It's simpler, sounds great, and most importantly: a rarer find than a PCM (at least in the US). I can find PCM 80s for under 400 all the time, or at least did about a year ago. Every time I have gone looking for a DL8000, I can't find one in the US, or they are asking prices higher than the PCM.
On the DL8000's structure: Italo has recreated the structure in the 2U Eventide units ( I believe it has a few tweaks, but is largely the same) and the number (and quality) different sounds he got out of that structure is truly remarkable. I have that library (and helped him port it to the 4000) and it is simple to use/visualize, and very broad. It doesn't have a reverb, per se, but it allows you to make your own reverbs with the delay lines. Obviously the PCM has reverb as well (both dedicated and user creatable with delay lines).

Someone on HRI asked for a comparison of the PCM 81, Eclipse, and DL8000, and Italo gave this response on their differences (I hope he doesn't mind me quoting that thread)( I eliminated the Eclipse part as it doesn't relate to your question).

"When it comes to delays they are 3 different beasts!

The KORG has 8 lines in 2 groups of 4 w/crossfeedbacks.
The minus in the Korg is that IF you want Tap Tempo, you loose modulation!!!

The LEXICON has 6 lines in 2 groups of 3 w/crossfeedbacks in some algorithms, modulation in others, diffusion in a few.

So... all have their specialties and I haven't really gone any deep in these descriptions as there's a lot to check. Depends on what you are after."

I know the DL has sometimes been compared to the TC2290, which kind of lends the idea of modulated and clean delays, but the structure is versatile. Both PCM and DL should give you very clean delays (I'm not sure either makes dirty delays, unless you overdrive the front end some how).

Given that the PCM is relatively easy to find (I see them for sale all the time), the rarity of the DL, and the price difference allowing you to keep you MM 550TT, which does a sound you like, I would definitely go for the DL. You can always look at the PCMs in the future.
 

Javiceres

Member
Messages
504
If money is no issue, I'd buy the Dl8000. But JMMP! That is the cheaper one?

Well, the DL8000 has one very great delay structure. It's simpler, sounds great, and most importantly: a rarer find than a PCM (at least in the US). I can find PCM 80s for under 400 all the time, or at least did about a year ago. Every time I have gone looking for a DL8000, I can't find one in the US, or they are asking prices higher than the PCM.
On the DL8000's structure: Italo has recreated the structure in the 2U Eventide units ( I believe it has a few tweaks, but is largely the same) and the number (and quality) different sounds he got out of that structure is truly remarkable. I have that library (and helped him port it to the 4000) and it is simple to use/visualize, and very broad. It doesn't have a reverb, per se, but it allows you to make your own reverbs with the delay lines. Obviously the PCM has reverb as well (both dedicated and user creatable with delay lines).

Someone on HRI asked for a comparison of the PCM 81, Eclipse, and DL8000, and Italo gave this response on their differences (I hope he doesn't mind me quoting that thread)( I eliminated the Eclipse part as it doesn't relate to your question).

"When it comes to delays they are 3 different beasts!

The KORG has 8 lines in 2 groups of 4 w/crossfeedbacks.
The minus in the Korg is that IF you want Tap Tempo, you loose modulation!!!

The LEXICON has 6 lines in 2 groups of 3 w/crossfeedbacks in some algorithms, modulation in others, diffusion in a few.

So... all have their specialties and I haven't really gone any deep in these descriptions as there's a lot to check. Depends on what you are after."

I know the DL has sometimes been compared to the TC2290, which kind of lends the idea of modulated and clean delays, but the structure is versatile. Both PCM and DL should give you very clean delays (I'm not sure either makes dirty delays, unless you overdrive the front end some how).

Given that the PCM is relatively easy to find (I see them for sale all the time), the rarity of the DL, and the price difference allowing you to keep you MM 550TT, which does a sound you like, I would definitely go for the DL. You can always look at the PCMs in the future.
Thanks !
Good stuff for reflection.
Here in Spain is very hard to get a PCM80 for under 550 €... The DL8000R goes for less than the PCM every single time they appear. At a minimum 100 or 150 € of a difference.
I've been hearing the Italo's web samples of these machines for a year or so now.
I love them all, if anything I'm not really interested in choruses (unless they are used to process wet signals) but I reckon they are spectacular.
Best regards.
 

jaykay73

Member
Messages
770
I'm keen on modulated arrays of delays, pseudo reverb and reverb FX. Huge and lush ambients, freezing sounds/tails is a BIG bonus for me, both in delays and verbs.
For those requirements the PCM would be the better option IMO. There aren't many kinds of delays you can't make on the PCM. Glide>Hall gives some amazing options and @AnalogKid85 has made some sensational plex delays based on JP's recent tones.

Pseudo reverb? How about REAL reverb - loads of flavors there. The freeze option is certainly available in the Infinite algorithm.

JK
 

italo de angelis

Senior Member
Messages
4,786
They are both good catches.
For LONG delays the PCM wins. The 80 can be expanded to 42 sec. per voice. And it does more than the Korg. As for reverbs made with delays... the PCM can do them (I haven't published yet in a library, but will).
Here are some examples of reverbs made with the 6 delays ONLY:

The DL8000R has those 2 extra delays and the input EQ is a great sound design tool. Given the fact it's a much rarer unit to get you should probably jump on it; but it won't replace the PCM; remember that.
 

Javiceres

Member
Messages
504
They are both good catches.
For LONG delays the PCM wins. The 80 can be expanded to 42 sec. per voice. And it does more than the Korg. As for reverbs made with delays... the PCM can do them (I haven't published yet in a library, but will).
Here are some examples of reverbs made with the 6 delays ONLY:

The DL8000R has those 2 extra delays and the input EQ is a great sound design tool. Given the fact it's a much rarer unit to get you should probably jump on it; but it won't replace the PCM; remember that.
Wow, those examples are stunning!!
 

AnalogKid85

Member
Messages
1,361
For those requirements the PCM would be the better option IMO. There aren't many kinds of delays you can't make on the PCM. Glide>Hall gives some amazing options and @AnalogKid85 has made some sensational plex delays based on JP's recent tones.
Not only that--there's more than one way to do it, and my favorite way to do that particular effect was with a Pitch Card algorithm (Dual-Chamber or Dual-Plate--can't remember which, but each can do it just fine), using the diffused Eko+Ref Delays & the Reverb post-EQ to act as an "input stage" before hitting some detuned delays w/feedback & cross-feedback applied at the same time. It's definitely "warmer" than the Glide>Hall version (though I'd love to try a Glide-Hall or Glide-Plate version one day, w/a DualFX card, since it has a similar set of filters on board).

Pseudo reverb? How about REAL reverb - loads of flavors there. The freeze option is certainly available in the Infinite algorithm.

JK
Worth noting for OP here: the "infinite" option in the Infinite verb type here really is "raw material" to be played with & manipulated with modifiers, LFOs (square wave would be good), input sensitivity, etc....I've even seen a factory preset where Infinite verb is always on when you're not playing, and it's a "regular" verb set to whatever settings you're using when you are playing :) The Infinite switch can be controlled any way you like too--footpedals, MIDI, dynamics, whatever ;) If you acquired a Dual-FX card in the future, you can pair the Infinite reverb + any of the 5 "types" of FX blocks (Chorus/Glide/M-Band/Res1/Res2 [resonant delays]), in any routing you want (something I don't have yet, but I'm very much looking forward to).

Now that's what's already on board--it's possible to "build" a lot of this stuff yourself, without the Infinite switch!

One of my favorite effects I ever made on this thing was an "infinite 3-note chord sequencer"...I used one delay line in the Pitch Card's Quad>Hall algorithm to be the "infinite feedback" delay (something relatively short, between 100-200ms), and then used both feedback & cross-feedback to feed that signal into the other 3 pitch shifter-delays, which were all set to cycle (via an LFO) through a sequence of 4 notes apiece (and it can go up to 8!), so it wound up making this great "chordal pad" that changed to a new 3-note chord about once a second, which was fed into a huge Concert Hall reverb w/modulation (and not that "cosmetic" modulation you hear on the Digitech pedals, where they just add chorus--this is the "real deal," where the delay lines inside the reverb itself are modulated--totally different sound). The sound didn't really "degrade" over time either--I was able to leave it up and running, make a sandwich, and come back 5 minutes later and it still sounded the same :) The sound really reminded me of a lot of ambient artists I listen to, like Steve Roach (who I later found out is a big fan of Lexicon & Eventide modulated verbs so go figure).

It also really excels at shimmer-type sounds--and I say "type," because while you can't place a reverb inside the feedback path of another delay (btw: MPX-1 can, if you want to do that later on), the fact that you can "embed" it totally into the reverb (via the FX-Rvb mix control) really allows it to get close. I really like the sound of a +1 octave shifter & a +5th shifter, feedback into both themselves AND each other, while also using the extra taps for detune (which can be set up like a chorus too, w/LFOs sweeping the +/- cents values).

I can't remember if I used the detuners or not here, but the whole +1 octave & +5th "cross-shimmer" thing sounds like this (totally dry sound first, then totally wet):


Also, as far as the "infinite" FX and spillover go--on all the 6-voice system algorithms, they are broken up into two groups of 3-tap delays, each of these 2 groups has its own input send, so you can set up two different delays (w/up to 3 taps each) or even mixtures of chorus/flanger/delays, and get perfect spillover between these groups, almost as if they were two delay pedals hooked up to a mixer :) There is enough "space" here to run "Circular Delays" and "Pan Delays" together in one preset, toggling seamlessly back-and-forth (Italo has written quite a bit about this before on HRI, and it's in his libraries too). The ability to kill an input send and increase the feedback of any delay at the same time means that it's possible to do those Boss DD-2/3/6-type repeat/"stutter" FX too (not to be confused with the "Stutter" effect on the H3000--that is a totally different [and much more complex] ballgame).

You mentioned you want to do some "Reverb FX" too...5 out of the 10 system algorithms allow you to add dual glide modulated delays after the reverb, with a mix control on just that portion too--so it's possible to add chorus, vibrato, or a mod delay (w/o feedback, unfortunately). The Glide>Hall, Res 1 & 2, and M-Band+Rvb algorithms will allow you to feed FX into the reverb and "embed" them as well (so you only hear the reverb, not the FX directly). The Pitch Card and DualFX Card greatly expand these capabilities, even allowing you to add flangers/resonant delays/sweep filter delays/etc. after the verb.
 

Anje

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,810
I'm keen on modulated arrays of delays, pseudo reverb and reverb FX. Huge and lush ambients, freezing sounds/tails is a BIG bonus for me, both in delays and verbs.
That description calls more for the PCM than the Korg to me.
I have both (PCM81 actually), and I go for the PCM when I'm looking for lush, verb-like or other freeze / resonance etc... kind of "special" or complex "ambiant/texture" types of effects.
The Korg does really great modulated delay based effects, and can give some special "reverb-like" ambiance when you have the programming skills as Italo has, but as Italo said also it can't replace one of those old PCM to me.
 

italo de angelis

Senior Member
Messages
4,786
For those requirements the PCM would be the better option IMO. There aren't many kinds of delays you can't make on the PCM. Glide>Hall gives some amazing options and @AnalogKid85 has made some sensational plex delays based on JP's recent tones.

Pseudo reverb? How about REAL reverb - loads of flavors there. The freeze option is certainly available in the Infinite algorithm.

JK

Plex delays on the PM80?

What PCM is that?
 

AnalogKid85

Member
Messages
1,361
Plex delays on the PM80?

What PCM is that?
We're talking the absolute "bare bones plex" here ;) (go to 2:32 if it doesn't skip to that)


A few months back, Stav asked me if I could "re-create" this Axe-FX patch for the PCM80, and after sifting through the Axe manual and trying a few things, I figured out it was a 2-plex delay, likely using one of the algorithms with modulation & diffusion in the feedback path (so probably ripped from the DSP/Orville, I'm guessing). I knew I wouldn't be able to get it to sound exactly like that (mostly because of the re-circulated diffusor & filtering), but I got closer than I expected to, with this:

  • Dual-Plate algorithm (Pitch Card), set up as Plate (100% wet) --> Dual (100% wet)
  • the Plate reverb block was used basically just as a diffusor & input EQ, w/the RefDelays (0ms)
  • two offset delay times in the Dual pitch/delay block (can't remember--something in the 450-ish and 700+ range) set to feed back both into themselves and each other
  • LFO sweeping the detune +/- cents, for some re-circulated modulation (just about the only thing I was able to get even close to the original algorithm on)
  • some more post-EQ with the Dual block (not as much as the first block)
I think this is the most recent version of that preset, if you want to try it:

 

italo de angelis

Senior Member
Messages
4,786
There are several algorithms in the Axe that can do that kind of delay, picking up rhythms in a couple of repetitions cycles. Most of them are taken from Eventide units, all the way.
Now, when one mentions PLEX, things get more complex because every delay in a (multi)PLEX feeds all other delays connected to it and is fed by all of them back. Think mixer with "n" inputs and same amount of outputs and every delay (or detuner/pitch shift/etc.) is looped thru every I/O. If you do this kind of delay effect, feedback should be not too high as the whole thing evolves in a mess of echoes and verb, eventually.
There is no diffusion. What you hear is simply a by_product of the plex concept itself.
I don't exactly know if the plex was used on the Axe. JP could have used the dual delay, the Quad series delay or even the Quad Tap dly.
The PCM cannot PLEX (multiply signals) from every delay to all others; it's very far from that kind of effect. But the X-feedback can help. I'd try any 4 or 6 delay lines structure w/x-fdbk with rhythmic subdivisions for those taps.
Diffusion may help simulating what happens in the plex... -ish.
It's interesting JP had these effects available about 15 yrs ago and he never used them.
 

Javiceres

Member
Messages
504
:( Now I'm seriously lusting for an 81... even more since I love micro pitch delays with Xfeedback and I prefer a pitch shifted sound into 100% wet reverb to a "traditional" shimmer (unless I had the whole original Eno/Lanois chain... Or perhaps a high end Eventide).
 
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Javiceres

Member
Messages
504
Not only that--there's more than one way to do it, and my favorite way to do that particular effect was with a Pitch Card algorithm (Dual-Chamber or Dual-Plate--can't remember which, but each can do it just fine), using the diffused Eko+Ref Delays & the Reverb post-EQ to act as an "input stage" before hitting some detuned delays w/feedback & cross-feedback applied at the same time. It's definitely "warmer" than the Glide>Hall version (though I'd love to try a Glide-Hall or Glide-Plate version one day, w/a DualFX card, since it has a similar set of filters on board).



Worth noting for OP here: the "infinite" option in the Infinite verb type here really is "raw material" to be played with & manipulated with modifiers, LFOs (square wave would be good), input sensitivity, etc....I've even seen a factory preset where Infinite verb is always on when you're not playing, and it's a "regular" verb set to whatever settings you're using when you are playing :) The Infinite switch can be controlled any way you like too--footpedals, MIDI, dynamics, whatever ;) If you acquired a Dual-FX card in the future, you can pair the Infinite reverb + any of the 5 "types" of FX blocks (Chorus/Glide/M-Band/Res1/Res2 [resonant delays]), in any routing you want (something I don't have yet, but I'm very much looking forward to).

Now that's what's already on board--it's possible to "build" a lot of this stuff yourself, without the Infinite switch!

One of my favorite effects I ever made on this thing was an "infinite 3-note chord sequencer"...I used one delay line in the Pitch Card's Quad>Hall algorithm to be the "infinite feedback" delay (something relatively short, between 100-200ms), and then used both feedback & cross-feedback to feed that signal into the other 3 pitch shifter-delays, which were all set to cycle (via an LFO) through a sequence of 4 notes apiece (and it can go up to 8!), so it wound up making this great "chordal pad" that changed to a new 3-note chord about once a second, which was fed into a huge Concert Hall reverb w/modulation (and not that "cosmetic" modulation you hear on the Digitech pedals, where they just add chorus--this is the "real deal," where the delay lines inside the reverb itself are modulated--totally different sound). The sound didn't really "degrade" over time either--I was able to leave it up and running, make a sandwich, and come back 5 minutes later and it still sounded the same :) The sound really reminded me of a lot of ambient artists I listen to, like Steve Roach (who I later found out is a big fan of Lexicon & Eventide modulated verbs so go figure).

It also really excels at shimmer-type sounds--and I say "type," because while you can't place a reverb inside the feedback path of another delay (btw: MPX-1 can, if you want to do that later on), the fact that you can "embed" it totally into the reverb (via the FX-Rvb mix control) really allows it to get close. I really like the sound of a +1 octave shifter & a +5th shifter, feedback into both themselves AND each other, while also using the extra taps for detune (which can be set up like a chorus too, w/LFOs sweeping the +/- cents values).

I can't remember if I used the detuners or not here, but the whole +1 octave & +5th "cross-shimmer" thing sounds like this (totally dry sound first, then totally wet):


Also, as far as the "infinite" FX and spillover go--on all the 6-voice system algorithms, they are broken up into two groups of 3-tap delays, each of these 2 groups has its own input send, so you can set up two different delays (w/up to 3 taps each) or even mixtures of chorus/flanger/delays, and get perfect spillover between these groups, almost as if they were two delay pedals hooked up to a mixer :) There is enough "space" here to run "Circular Delays" and "Pan Delays" together in one preset, toggling seamlessly back-and-forth (Italo has written quite a bit about this before on HRI, and it's in his libraries too). The ability to kill an input send and increase the feedback of any delay at the same time means that it's possible to do those Boss DD-2/3/6-type repeat/"stutter" FX too (not to be confused with the "Stutter" effect on the H3000--that is a totally different [and much more complex] ballgame).

You mentioned you want to do some "Reverb FX" too...5 out of the 10 system algorithms allow you to add dual glide modulated delays after the reverb, with a mix control on just that portion too--so it's possible to add chorus, vibrato, or a mod delay (w/o feedback, unfortunately). The Glide>Hall, Res 1 & 2, and M-Band+Rvb algorithms will allow you to feed FX into the reverb and "embed" them as well (so you only hear the reverb, not the FX directly). The Pitch Card and DualFX Card greatly expand these capabilities, even allowing you to add flangers/resonant delays/sweep filter delays/etc. after the verb.
Good Lord, that's pretty much... Heaven!
 

jaykay73

Member
Messages
770
@AnalogKid85 if you didn't realise I set you up with an alley-oop and you delivered just like Karl Malone with post #9 :dude

I forgot the infinite reverb algorithm comes with a switch to activate infinite mode. I love running PCM81 in parallel with H3000 and having an infinite option on both units - H3000 swept reverb has its repeat mode. Toggling infinite options back & forth on each unit is great fun to play with.

JK
 

italo de angelis

Senior Member
Messages
4,786
Make a long reverb become infinite feeding a couple of long modulated delays. Set the time switch to turn infinite ON the OFF after a while, while bringing up the delays with their buffers full of verb, while the verb is being muted. The time switch needs to control verb infinit, delay level and verb level, switching between them while infinite goes on and off....
Some serious **** right there, for the DualFX card owners!

Really? TGP puts the **** there, not me!
 

Javiceres

Member
Messages
504
Yep, it's goof sounding stuff. The PCM has an advantage in this type of "verbs" over the DL8000R... one reason my replicas on the big Eventides include a diffusion stage to make the verb smoother.
Oh, I see, there are dedicated diffusers for the delays in the PCM.
 






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