KORG DL8000R

Discussion in 'The Rack Space' started by parntz145, Feb 13, 2017.

  1. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

    Messages:
    4,786
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011

    That would be the next stage in trying to make something sound like something else.
    First one is about THE same structure. Which if it's not the case I don't even bother.
    See... in my world, when you call something like something else, there must be the very good reasons to do that or it's just not fair.
    The two boxes have different structures... and you can't do anything about it on the Korg. An open device would help there and you could call it a true replica, with a different tone (that's a personality thing).
    Just because it uses a multitap delay doesn't mean that it can do what any other multitap delay based unit does.
    Does the DL8000R do what the TC D2 does or the opposite? Nope.
    The point is all in your last sentence!
    Check the service manual for more clues.
    o_O
     
  2. mentoneman

    mentoneman Guest

    Messages:
    2,481
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2004
    this is a good overview of what the ADA controls do and how they interact although the demo dude is a little knob heavy!



    ps a friend gave me a EH small clone and there is a lot to like about this pedal.
     
  3. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

    Messages:
    4,786
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011

    Kind of weak demo I'd say. Not sure if the guy really knows what the STD-1 is used for or if the plug design is not exactly right.
    The tone is far away from the original... really far.
    I have spent hours with this thing and Scott Henderson, tweaking it to death. The things you can do are amazing.
    If you really want to hear what the STD-1 does, its kind of wide spread and modulation, check out the the first 3 records of Tribal Tech.
    There you'll get a nice picture... and it would be interesting to try to tweak this plug to get the same results.
    The tone... not even close.
     
  4. mentoneman

    mentoneman Guest

    Messages:
    2,481
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2004
    i would agree that the demo sonically did not do any justice to how that plug-in might sound when set for traditional guitar rack chorusing. i just liked the fact that it provided explanations, examples, and demoed the controls and how they interact.

    i have never had my hands on the real STD-1, but using those time values i posted earlier from the manual as a starting point, i sure have programmed some lovely choruses in my korg which i find unique sounding to that unit. much more useable for my tastes and closer to the 1210/tri sounds i dig than the factory stuff.

    However i do not think that just because "unit A" can reproduce the structure of "unit B", that it guarantees A "will" sound just like B even if every parameter is perfectly matched, or that you will successfully be able to identically emulate one with the other.

    your tri stereo and tc 2290 presets on the korg were infinitely closer in spirit to those boxes than the presets you created on the pcm 80 or eventide units imo---would you agree?----and that seems to be because the korg has a tone unique to the sum of it's parts that is just natively geared toward being better at reproducing those sounds, not only just because they share the same structure?
     
  5. Anje

    Anje Supporting Member

    Messages:
    1,197
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Agree, hard to find the unique tone(s) of that good old ADA STD-1 in the pluggin clip above.
    I've had 2 units of this beast years ago, there's nothing quite like it; for some time I was using it as the main stereo split and chorus in my stereo & W/D/W rigs instead of the TSC and TC1210.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
  6. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

    Messages:
    4,786
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011

    IF the structures are the same and the availability of parameters too... you get there. That's the way you can really replicate any machine with another. There are some other hidden aspects in the code but those primary aspect will make most of the work. They may not sound "the same" as I have already stated... any machine has its character but the effect will be the same.
    Closer in spirit... is something not exactly pertinent to this kind of things. You either have something that can do it or you don't... it's not about spirit/opinion/hopes... not that abstract.
    The TSC and Korg are very different machines. A TC2290 is a simple thing to emulate but its tone is not... the Korg EQs help a lot in that direction.
    The TSCon the big Eventides is very close... you have to listen to the effect itself... not to the usual Landau/L.A. thing. I never recorded any demo with those sounds in mind.
    Use a TSC and a bug Eventide with the TSC replica and you will be amazed at how close they are.
    The PCM80 and the TSC are different pretty much as TSC and Korg. Korg and PCM are VERY similar.
    But the PCM gets much closer to that kind of TSC+delays sound than the Korg as the common feedback path also has additional feedback controls for each delays, so more combs get into the picture.
    It's a very simple and quite scientific thing... not black magic or anything magic.
    The underlying algorithm structure is what makes it in the frst place.
     
    chlorinemist likes this.
  7. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

    Messages:
    4,786
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011

    SPLIT!
    That's ONE of the most beautiful jobs the STD has ever done.
    And that cannot be done by the 1210 or TSC.
     
  8. mentoneman

    mentoneman Guest

    Messages:
    2,481
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2004
    i will say that even though the emulations italo and ryan do of the tsc and 1210 aren't identical to the original in my opinion, they are really wonderful variations of the original sounds.
    i have had the 1210 and 2290 in my racks and can visit zach's shop and play through his tsc and H8000 at any time (and have), but the ada has eluded me.

    holdsworth used them for the road games era rig:

    "Holdsworth's current lead work is especially unusual because although his tone is as fluid and nimble as a synthesizer, he uses virtually no signal processing at all (he did use a Scholz Rockman for the sax-like bite of "Three Sheets To The Wind"). "I've noticed for a long time that lighter bodied guitars always seemed to sound better. [Charvel's] Grover Jackson was unbelievable, going to all lengths experimenting with different woods. We finished up using bass wood; it's a little bit like alder, but it's lighter, very resonant. Grover made four Charvel guitars for me. He also widened the neck dimensions, more like a Gibson. The bridge is an aluminium DiMarzio and the pickups are Seymour Duncans, similar to a PAF but with two rows of pole pieces so that both bobbins are absolutely symmetrical; it makes the magnetic field more uniform." For strings, Allan uses .009 Kaman Performers. His favorite amp for lead playing has been a Hartley-Thompson with an occasional Fender.

    On his chordal accompaniments, Allan has been striving for a more "orchestral" sound, using layers of delays to get shimmering, pulsating textures from his sophisticated fingerings. "For my rhythm sound, I've designed a setup where all the signal processing is driven from one master board; I put each effect into one fader." His digital delays are two ADA STD-1s, two AMS units and a Yamaha E1010. The whole rhythm setup is run through a Yamaha PG-1 instrument pre-amp, some P2200 power amps and S412 speakers. The mixers are a Yamaha M406 and a M516. Allan also has an Ovation '83 Collector's Series acoustic and a Chapman Stick."




     
  9. AnalogKid85

    AnalogKid85 Member

    Messages:
    1,311
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2008
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    I wonder how close you could get with a Yamaha D5000:

    [​IMG]
    A lot of the aspects are there, definitely more than what the PCM and the Korg have going on!

    It even supports having multiple taps fed back on the same line (like the PCM), and any way of syncing/un-syncing any # of delays, even with different LFO phase offsets (like the UD-Stomp, which looks like it owes a lot to this). The feedback hi-cuts are there too (and lows).

    It doesn't get all the way there, but it looks like it's definitely better-suited for this than the Korg or the PCM to me.
     
  10. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

    Messages:
    4,786
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011

    You can get SOME sounds similar to the STD on each of those machines, depending on how the STD is set. But the single mono delay buffer with 6 outputs has a selectable feedback tap source and a modulation/non modulation delays mix. That can't be done here nor on the other machines.
    The closest thing in factory presets out there is on Eclipse/big Tides BUT it's limited to 4 delays.
    The choice for the feedback tap isn't a minor detail.
    On the big Tides you can build that, easily.
    This is probably the closest structure to the STD but the modulation mix can't be done.
    And last but not least... the STD is analog! An analog multitap delay is a very rare thing.
     
  11. Anje

    Anje Supporting Member

    Messages:
    1,197
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    That thread brings back some old memories!

    [​IMG]
     
    AnalogKid85 likes this.
  12. Anje

    Anje Supporting Member

    Messages:
    1,197
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    I've even just bumped into a slightly later incarnation of that rig as a small compact W/D/W config, when I had swapped the PCM41 for a 42.
    I do recall that was sounding sweet!

    [​IMG]
     
  13. mentoneman

    mentoneman Guest

    Messages:
    2,481
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2004
    my kind of rig-compact peda/rack hybrid and as small as possible on the amp side
     
  14. Anje

    Anje Supporting Member

    Messages:
    1,197
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Yep, I eventually brought it down to stereo with a smaller board for an even more compact rig that could all fit into the car trunk, and had used that rig for most of the past ~3 years weekly with the band up until end of last year.
    I'm actually starting to re-build a similar rig, compact pedal/rack mix, stereo or W/D/W I'm not fully decided yet, reworking the rack & pedal trays + MIDI board. Small Pro Junior combos are gone though, I'm willing to use the same Marshall head as the bigger rig for the core tone, and will probably go the small 1x12 route.
    To be continued! (as always :) )

    PS: and to link back to the thread topic, that rig does have a Korg DL8000R ;)
    [​IMG]
    (5U rack in the middle)
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
    AnalogKid85 likes this.
  15. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

    Messages:
    4,786
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    RIGHT THERE IN THE PICTURE I can see 3 beautiful rigs to die for:
    -1) Korg DL8000R + PCM80
    -2) TC1210 + KorgSDD + Roland SDE3000 + PCM70
    -3) TSC + SPX90 + 2 PCM42s - H3000
     
    AnalogKid85 likes this.
  16. Anje

    Anje Supporting Member

    Messages:
    1,197
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Yes Italo, lots of possibilities available with those units.

    I only need 2 "moveable rigs" actually (I mean by that gear ensembles that can be moved independently to rehearsals, gig..):
    - one big W/D/W for the great occasions, based on the Marshall 4x12 & Park 2x12 in the background, using the 10U rack
    - and one as compact as possible stereo or W/D/W for the weekly duties (the one discussed above), using the 5U rack (I found out that's really the biggest I can manage to move by myself on a regular basis). I'm still not sure about which units to keep in that 5U, previous setup pictured above sounds really great but sometimes I felt I was missing some of the deeper/complex verb/pad-like effects I'm using the PCMs & H3000 for in the big rig. I may need to work harder on the DL8000R & SPX to see what I can get from them. I get the TC flavor in that rig using my trusty old SCF pedal in front of the rack (and it acts also that way as the main stereo split), that's not a 1210 but gets the job done really well.

    The 3rd "rig" can be in the studio where I have everything on hand; I'm working on putting together a new small studio setup around a simple straight forward & compact old analog console, with which I could use all the racks in a classic outboard way.
    Working on getting some good converters right now (looking for some old Apogee AD8000SE BTW :) ), really looking forward beign able to play with that setup once done, and finally get to work to make some recordings.
     
  17. mentoneman

    mentoneman Guest

    Messages:
    2,481
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2004
    amazing combination of effects in there! i can attest to the pcm80/dl8000 being an dynamic duo.

    the 4x12 middle is a thing of beauty and i've not found a 2x12 or 1x12 to sound as good in it's place,
    but i don't mind 1x12 wets as much.

    here is a question for you and italo and ryan:

    have you ever experienced slight phasing between two different manufacturer's units, running the same delay times in parallel through a mixer?

    for example, set a short hard panned 75/150ms stereo delay on the pcm, no modulation or eq filtering, and do the same on the korg. both units 100% wet stereo outputs, sent to first 4 channels of a mixer and set for equal volumes.

    do you ever hear slight phasing problems caused by the inherent difference in latency of each device's a/d-a/a conversion, such as a drop in volume or hollow combing effect?
     
  18. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

    Messages:
    4,786
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011

    I haven't really tried as I don't see the point of having different units ON the same delay times. It can be mostly an incidental thing.
    But sure, it may well happen... around 1 ms. of latency is what you could expect in good quality modern units.
    Offsetting delays by 1 or 2 milliseconds will fix the phase problem.
     
  19. Anje

    Anje Supporting Member

    Messages:
    1,197
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Hi Mentoneman, as Italo I don't think I've ever tried/used 2 different delay units set to the same exact value without any "processing"/modulation as you describe, so can't comment on that.
    Btw, even if I set 2 dual mono delays hard panned L/R for some pseudo "ping-pong" effect, I tend to prefer to always slightly offset the times (by at least 15-30ms) so that you never have the 2 delays playing at the same time on the left & right channels; for exemple I don't setup 400/800, but would rather do 415/795ms for instance. I find to prefer the spread and effect that way.
     
  20. mentoneman

    mentoneman Guest

    Messages:
    2,481
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2004
    thanks guys-
    yeah i was just using the setting as an example, and like italo mentioned i believe i have experienced it more as an incidental thing when combining short delay times or chorusing between units.
     

Share This Page