KORG DL8000R

Discussion in 'The Rack Space' started by parntz145, Feb 13, 2017.

  1. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    But the thing has possibilities in creating some interesting effects, using a more elaborate setup than just a single machine.
    There's food for thought there.
     
  2. AnalogKid85

    AnalogKid85 Member

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    I haven't tried that exactly, but I could absolutely see that happening between certain units.

    I have experienced some good AND bad comb filtering between two different choruses that are on in parallel at the same time, but it's usually easy to get rid of, like Italo said (moving the delay time +/-1 ms usually takes care of it). I generally don't run into that too much though, because all the units I have "behave" so differently, especially when it comes to modulation.
     
  3. mentoneman

    mentoneman Guest

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    thanks gents. always appreciate your feedback and expertise.

    phase issues aside, i love how complimentary the pcm80 and dl8000 are to one another due to the differences in sonic character. i remember holdsworth once stating that he preferred to combine delay units from different manufacturers and i think i understand why. it just sounds more interesting! and yes used creatively the added phasing can really notch up and animate the sound!

    i've also been experimenting again with adding a pedal chorus to the front of the chain. been alternating between the arion and the eh small clone. as fun and dramatically obvious as that can be, it always seem to be a trade off in the fidelity of the sound. not so big a deal in a live amp rig but under headphones you can really hear the difference.
     
  4. Lavely

    Lavely Silver Supporting Member

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    Given that the DL8000R has four delay taps on each side, but only one on each side has direct Feedback, this means that ONLY the Feedback delay can provide more than one echo by itself, correct? Is this a typical structure for a multi-tap delay? I was surprised that only one delay tap was able to feedback, but perhaps that is normal for these engines?

    So, then, I assume that I should always use the Feedback delay FIRST in thinking about any delay structures, then add 1, 2 or 3 as I see fit, correct? I say this because, if you start with 1, 2 or 3, and you do not get to the Feedback delay, there is no way to obtain more than one echo, correct?

    I also assume that, as long as you are using the Feedback delay, then you would want this to be the longest of your multiple delays, usually, correct? This would allow 1, 2 and 3 to ring clearly first, then the feedback to enter the picture. I could see uses the other way as well, just curious how folks approach programming.
     
  5. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Good question! These "guts things" don't happen frequently...
    Multitap delays can have several structures but the one used in the DL8000R is pretty common and straightforward.
    It takes some user experimentation to understand how it works.

    For testing purposes let's use the LEFT group of taps only; so go to the MIXER and mute all the Right ones. And keep the FB TYPE to NORMAL as we don't want to have cross-feedback happening now.
    Then let's locate the 4 LEFT taps in the stereo panorama as this will tell us which tap(s) are we hearing:
    Set L Tap1 to L20(full left), L Tap2 to L10(mid left), L Tap3 to R10(mid right) and L FBTAP to R20(full right). We now have the 4 taps equally spread across the L<>R stereo field.
    Keep L FBACK at 3.5. This is going to be the feedback for the overall left multitap buffer.
    Let's say L Tap1 is set to 300ms and L FDBK Tap to 1000ms:
    -If you only raise the L Tap1 level (L FBACK Lev is muted) you are hearing a 300ms tap playing only once and a 1000ms repeating delay AFTER the initial 300ms. You only hear audio from the full Left tap 1.
    So both taps are recirculating thru L Tap1.
    -If your LTap1 level is muted and the L FBACK is at 0.0 (full on) you are only hearing the 1000ms fback tap on the right side, no L Tap1 present.
    -If you have both L Tap1 and L FB Tap at full levels you are hearing the L Tap1 after 300ms on the left channel and the L FBTAP after 1000ms on the right. Ping pong style. The Left Tap1 has 1000ms added to its 300ms.
    So... the 2 taps are pretty much in series and parallel, audio-wise.

    Your question...
    "ONLY the Feedback delay can provide more than one echo by itself, correct?"
    If you only use any Tap 1/2/3 or all of them, without the FbTap of the same group (muted and 0.1ms delay) you're not going to hear any delay repetition, even though the feedback may be set high.
    So your statement is correct.

    But...
    set L Taps 1/2/3 at 300/450/600 ms / keep the panning as above and L FBACK at 3.5 / set the L FDBK Tap level at -INF (OFF):
    set the L FDBK Tap at 0.1 ms (minimum setting) and you are going to hear the 3 taps across the stereo field only once.
    Now try L FDBK Tap set at each of the L Taps delay values, 300/450/600ms:
    at 300ms you'll hear the 3 taps feeding back very quickly, at the L FDBAK Tap delay setting (300ms)
    at 450ms you'll hear the 3 taps feeding back in shuffle feel. The 450ms does that trick
    at 600ms you'll hear the 3 taps feeding back at the "correct" rate, like 3 separate delays set at 300/450/600 ms, across the stereo field.
    So the setting of the longest delay is what you need to use for the Fbak Tap to get the proper timing. Any other value for that, will change the overall rhythmic feel of the delays sequence.
    Your second and third questions... are correct.
    you can't get any feedback if the FBAK Tap delay time is nulled (0.1ms)...it doesn't matter if its level is off.
    When you set a train of delays you have to know what kind of rhythmic feel you want. Using the longest delay setting for the FBAK Tap should respect the original timing of the 3 delays.
    But you can try all different kind of things because the FBAK Tap can have a different value from the other 3 taps in the same buffer.

    The recirculation path is common to all delays and hearable when the FBAK Tap time is raised.
    This not only provides interesting and endless rhythmic effects (you can accent taps with different levels to create more rhythmic variations), but when modulation is used, each delay sweep goes thru all the others, creating very rich combs filtering and sweeping effects, dense and full of harmonic/phase shifts contents.

    Other multitap delays may work in similar ways AND having some peculiar differencec at the same time:
    -the PCM80/81 would recirculate a delay even if its level is nulled, thru the other 2 delays in the buffer, as long as its feedback is used. Can't do this on the Korg.
    -Eclipse 4 taps algorithms offer a selection for where you want the feedback to be tapped off and where it's going to enter the tap again. You can, for instance, have your feedback being tapped from tap 2 and get back in tap 3, creating VERY different rhythmic effects.
     
    AnalogKid85 and Gone Fission like this.
  6. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Multitap comparison between the KORG DL8000R and the EVENTIDE ECLIPSE Chorustaps algorithm.

    The KORG DL8000R algorithm:



    The ECLIPSE CHORUSTAPS algorithm:



    Things to notice:
    -the Eclipse structure has 4 delays. It takes both Eclipse FX Blocks to run the 8 delays as in the Korg.
    You would use ECLIPSE *dual* routing and load two instances of Chorusdelays in the 2 FX Blocks.
    -Still you won't have several of the Korg "features" like:
    >input 3 Band EQ
    >pre-delay
    >high/low damp
    >cross-feedback between the 2 groups of delays
    Eclipse has its own good though as each delay has a dedicated LFO with rate/depth; this will
    help to create very intense multi-modulation effects.
    But for general Korg to ECLIPSE porting, this would work fine.
    -the Eclipse drawing shows one example of feedback routing; the feedback is tapped off delay 4 and re-injected into delay 3. You can choose any delay tap for both choices.


    This is an example on how to get the same exact multitap delay on both machines, using ONLY one side of the Korg delays and one instance of the Eclipse Chorusdelay. I'm going to use the LEFT delays group of the Korg.


    KORG settings:
    L Tap 1 300 ms / L Tap 2 450 ms / L Tap 3 600 ms / L FBACK Tap 750 ms
    L FBACK -5.0 (master feedback)
    All levels set at 0.0 dB (full)
    L Tap 1 pan L20 / L Tap 2 pan L10 / L Tap 3 pan R10 / L Tap 4 pan R20 (full spread across stereo)
    I'm not using modulation. You can if you like.
    Mute all the right delays in the mixer.
    Set FEEDBACK TYPE = NORMAL.

    ECLIPSE settings:
    Set all T_TAP1/2/3/4 to OFF
    Tap 1 300 ms / Tap 2 150 ms / Tap 3 150 ms / Tap 4 150 ms
    All levels set at 0.0 dB (full)
    PAN 1 -100% / PAN 2 -50% / PAN 3 50% / PAN 4 100%
    FBACK 50%
    FB<TAP# 4 FB>TAP#1
    I'm not using modulation. You can if you like.

    Now you're going to get 4 delay taps, equally spaced in time, playing from full left to full right in your stereo panorama on both machines.

    So... if you own an Eclipse, the example above will get you close to the DL8000R.
     
    AnalogKid85 likes this.
  7. mentoneman

    mentoneman Guest

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    i also like using the first 3 taps for short modulated chorusing effects and the FBAK Tap as the longer traditional delay time, with filtering, subtle modulation and cross feedback.

    the reverb/Eno effects you create with it are really nice and i can see the potential of customizing it that way but i honestly wouldn't know where to begin with the theory of it. multiple short diffused delays with heavy recirculation and dynamic level control is about all i got :D

    have you experimented with looping using the korg? the clarity of the sound would probably make it a great candidate for short phrases but again i haven't dug into the "torture chamber" (aka manual) to learn how to set that up.
     
  8. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    If you only use 4 taps of one side... the x-feedback won't work. You need all of them for it.
    One of the secrets to those reverbs is theor soft level and eq. Those kill the transients and let the sound fade as a reverb rather than a cluster of delays. A lot of custom work possible there, sure.
    Haven't used it for looping as 10 sec. mono is not that much. I have other devices with minutes of delay memory for that.
    The looping setup is simple. just put all delays at their max. time, use x-feedback and feed audio to one input only for 10 sec. mono looping. Use both inputs and normal feedback for stereo 5 sec. looping.
    Damp will kill the loops, more or less slowly. No damp and they'll live forever. Need to control input level because you want to mute the input(s) when loop is complete or recirculation noise will build up in time.
     
  9. Lavely

    Lavely Silver Supporting Member

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    Italo - this is a very cool intro to exactly what I am wondering. Unfortunately, I will be away from my gear for a couple weeks, but I will work through your comments when I return!

    Thanks!
     
  10. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Glad you like it!
    2 weeks should fly fast...
     
  11. jaykay73

    jaykay73 Member

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    About to connect a DL8000r with a mono feed...

    Can I just plug in to the left input and will the unit internally send the input to both "engines" or is a Y-cable the better way to go?

    Italo I know you wrote "The Korg is smart enough to handle these differences by sensing connected inputs and route them to the internal effects structure" but the manual has nothing on the topic. But then again, that manual...

    JK
     
  12. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Really?
    Is this the real JK... or one of those demential TGP bots?
     
  13. jaykay73

    jaykay73 Member

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    Yes, that was a legitimate question

    JK
     
  14. Antonio C.

    Antonio C. Member

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    Hi Italo!

    Regarding the above, I would like to build an echo program in the Korgdl8000R with 6 tap delays, 76 ms, 152 ms, 230 ms, 305 ms, 380 ms and 455 ms. Should I use L1, L2, and L3, 76, 152, and 230, with L FDBAK tap delay at 230 ms? Right? and then R1, R2, and R3, 305, 380, and 455 ms with R FDBAK tap delay at 455? Right?

    Would it be the same if I use L1, L2 and L3, 76, 230 and 380 ms with L FDBAK tap delay at 380? and R1, R2, R3, 152, 305, 455, with R FDBAK tap delay at 455?
    Please advise me

    Now if you wanted to build an echo program with 4 tap delays, for example 106, 204, 285, 360 ms.
    Should I use L1, L2, 106, 204 with L FDBAK tap delay at 204 ms? and R1, R2, 285, 360 ms, with R FDBAK tap delay at 360 ms?
    Would it be the same to use L1, L3 and R1, R3? 104, 204, 285, 360?
    Would it be wrong to use L1, L2, L3, 106, 204, 285 with L FDBAK tap delay at 285 ms? and R1, 360 with R FDBAK tap delay at 360 ms? Thanks.
     
  15. mentoneman

    mentoneman Guest

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    you might not get an answer from italo here as he is no longer able to post on this forum

    try his website:)

    your example 1 in it's simplest form (all L taps panned left with no further repeats via feedback/all R taps panned right with no further repeats) would result in a series of triplets in your left ear followed by a series of triplets in yor right ear. the L or R feedback level would then determine how many times this pattern would repeat.
    custom panning of the taps could make one echo appear on the opposite ear or anywhere along the stereo field, modulation adds further charater, high passing of the feedback loop helps make repeats melt quicker or later...low passing adds to the echoes hollowing out with each recirculation

    your example 2 following the logic i set up in thr previous explanation suggests a typical 8th note pattern with the first two repeats in the left ear followed by the second two repeats in the right ear.

    staggering the taps so that L1 is the shortest followed by R1 as the next in the timing sequence creates the ping pong stereo effect, and is also best for selecting very short delay times in pairs (L1/R1, L2/R2, etc..) to create stereo chorus effects ala holdsworth.
     
  16. Antonio C.

    Antonio C. Member

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    Thanks mentoneman for your response and indications. I am a novice in programming the Korg DL8000R, but I will continue trying because the sound of this rack is very beautiful.
     

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