Lets talk about the importance of psychology, intent, and envisionment in becoming a great player

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by SuperSilverHaze, Jul 11, 2018 at 10:43 AM.


  1. SuperSilverHaze

    SuperSilverHaze Member

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    not saying this is the case at all from parker and not even really implying it either, because i dont know, but it possible. instead of rubbing off though, i like to think of it as being very inspired by. it could be possible that he was very inspired by art to the point of lighting a new flame.

    i know jerry garcia is documented as really putting more effort forward after the first time he heard clapton. after hearing eric he sat down with the guitar for much longer lengths of time and was quoted saying that eric was that inspiration.
     
  2. IGuitUpIGuitDown

    IGuitUpIGuitDown Member

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    "inane?!?"

    I think you meant "innate."

    Good points, though. :aok
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018 at 3:24 PM
  3. Megatron

    Megatron Member

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    You said, about Duane Allman as far as playing experience, 'Yeah, he woodshedded in the cottage by the lake, but that was for a matter of months'. Which is obviously compete bull $hit. I think that's what we're mainly commenting on.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018 at 3:29 PM
  4. Megatron

    Megatron Member

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    True. I don't even mean rubbing off. I was trying to put it lightly. I'm wondering how many times they might have chatted or how many times Charlie might of picked Art's brain. just speculating. Art was really good with symmetrical scale runs and had insane chops. And a lot of advanced harmonic knowledge from the impressionist composers from what I've read. They might of had some great conversations.
     
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  5. IGuitUpIGuitDown

    IGuitUpIGuitDown Member

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    If you think of some of the most popular songs that most know, they aren't the most difficult songs to play.

    But I found that learning the deeper cuts taught me the most. The popular music is the fluff, the meringue. The challenging music is the deep cuts, or the pie filling/crust.

    Learning Beatles songs is great because they are widely recognized. A Beatles deep cut might resonate better with an audience than a lesser bands' Top 10 hit.

    I also found that the more actual complete songs I knew, the longer I would keep playing, for hours and hours. You get warmed up, enjoy how you sound and just keep going...

    It's not drudgery if you're having fun.
     
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  6. DrSax

    DrSax Member

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    Man, I disagree. However, I do believe there are natural talents, and more extraordinarily rare freaks/savants.

    But 99.99% of all the "greats" you can name is the result of tons of dedicated hard work combined with other environmental issues/luck.
     
  7. DrSax

    DrSax Member

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    Charlie Parker got that way after a drummer threw a cymbal at him cuz he stunk up the stage. He then went home and practiced 14 hours a day.

    And by most accounts, Coltrane was nothing special early on. He worked tremendously hard.
     
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  8. GovernorSilver

    GovernorSilver Member

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    When splatt (David Torn) posted "Don't have a backup plan" that stuck with me. It was on a past thread that was very much like this one - how to become a great player or some such thing.
     
  9. SuperSilverHaze

    SuperSilverHaze Member

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    :: throws out plan B. Pornstar ::
     
  10. teleluvver

    teleluvver Supporting Member

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    Thanks for catching that. I corrected it because, after all, it is important to this discussion.
     
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  11. IGuitUpIGuitDown

    IGuitUpIGuitDown Member

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    Others here tend to ridicule the importance of using the intended word. I appreciate your insight.
    :beer
     
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  12. IGuitUpIGuitDown

    IGuitUpIGuitDown Member

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    Not "B.A. Pornstar?" ;)
     
  13. Megatron

    Megatron Member

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    Like I said, when he left KC for New York he was barely an amateur at best.
     
  14. Jon

    Jon Member

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    I think it's also part of the wider aspect of just spending time thinking about your playing - thinking about what you do, how you do it and why, thinking about alternatives, thinking about building your musical vocabulary and technique, thinking about how other great musician have done it, thinking about your strengths and weaknesses in terms of technique, musical knowledge and your own personality.

    Some of the posts here from players who are struggling with certain things makes you realise that it must be the case that not everyone does this. Not sure whether it's the YouTube generation, but in the good old days (I remember when all this was trees) you couldn't really avoid spending a good amount of time just thinking about how to learn and improve, as there just weren't the resources to help - you had to try to s. And as you say, it certainly seems that those players who have become great musicians all seem to have a great insight into themselves and what they do - even those players who aren't necessarily schooled in theory - it's the 'artist' quality that they have about what they do.
    There's been quite a bit of research on this and a number of books written on this subject over recent years - they all point to 'natural talent' being a myth - those who attain greatness are the ones who've simply worked harder at every aspect of their game for longer than anyone else. Even having a great musical ear isn't something people are born with, but they have developed it, often unconsciously over years of intensive listening - in fact, the only thing that does seems to be inbuilt is that 'interest' in music which makes some people pay more attention to it at a very young age. In every case it seems that people underestimate how much work the greats have actually put in to achieve.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 5:09 AM
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  15. The bear

    The bear Member

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    I know some incredible players that never got anywhere in terms of careeer. It had nothing to do with their playing. Different personality types, self-doubt, depression, social anxiety, substance abuse and physcological probelms plagued some of them. Becoming a great player has to do with talent, hard work and passion. That doesn't guarrantee that someone become famous or recognized. Social factors, social skills and often luck is key here.
     
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  16. The bear

    The bear Member

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    People learn differently-some people get really good early and often kind of stop developing. Others taker longer time to develop and never seem to stop. I don't buy into the whole 10 000 hour rule. It's just a made up number. Even people that have great natural abilities has to work really hard to reach the highest level of musicianship.
     
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  17. Megatron

    Megatron Member

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    10,000 is a made up number, at least in a way. But it represents a period of time it takes to develop the skills. And it's different for everyone.
    Most of the examples that people use to dismiss it,'oh, they were just born with it', usually just prove the point. Mozart, Parker, or in this case even Duane(who apparently woodsheded' at the cottage by the lake for a few months to get there.......right).

    Putting in the work, creating the right opportunities, having the right teachers(so much info out there and ways to get the knowledge/coaching someone might need to excel these days).
     
  18. SuperSilverHaze

    SuperSilverHaze Member

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    Define success. I certainly don't define success as having a "successfully lucrative" career in terms of monetary value or recognition. As a matter if fact I would rather be a low income side job bartending musician with complete mastery and the full command of expressive communication on my instrument than be just a good guitarist in a 6 figure a year band. To each their own though
     
  19. SuperSilverHaze

    SuperSilverHaze Member

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    10000 rule is silly. I agree and there is a lot of evidence that points towards how smart you practice as being the main factor on how lomg it will take or how quickly you will improve. I'm trying to still figure this out but i do know I notice real improvements on a bi weekly basis it seems. I'm ok with that but strive to improve
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 10:30 AM
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  20. Megatron

    Megatron Member

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    I agree. When I say success I mean in terms of skill and ability. Which sounds like 'chops' but could just as easily be songwriting or something else.
    For others it could be lucrative career.
     

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