JK the pivot points ONLY help to arbitrarily match a set of values to the existing LFO curves; you are not drawing any modulation curve there... you are simply patching a number of parameter values to the pre-set wave, adding/subtracting speed to the inner slopes of it. Drawing a real modulation curve is something different, very different, from having an LFO running thru a control table of values. Up to some point pivots can "resemble" a bit of a waveform design but it's a very incomplete function which doesn't run in the same way. I'm very surprised by your statement here as you mention devices that are MUCH more powerful when it comes to this type of things. Drawing curves is something you get on very few units and very expensive ones. So... just let's put that aside for now. If you consider what's left, yes the DL8000R doesn't offer much in terms of wvaeforms choice and number of LFOs. It does give phase offset though... which you can't have on the PCM. The H3000 has a huge choice of waveforms in its Functions Generator. I wish my PCM had 3 or 4 of those waves, let alone the triggered ONLY waveforms! The KSP8? Really? That's a monster modulation platform. You can even create things on it with math. And the waveforms choice os simply huge and stunning. That's a real mod_lab only contending with the few superior devices offering total openness. The DP/Pro takes us back to more human levels, but it still has beautiful waveforms. The pivot points feature of the PCM is a great one and quite unique. I understand that. Not easy to find and only available on the big Tides, along with true waveforms design... both possible thru a much more detailed plotting of 32 pivots. And yes, the PCM may be very easy when it comes to patching parameters to pivots... but when it comes to modulation, the pivots are not as important as waveforms choice (many of them and interesting ones), phase offset, number of LFOs available. That's a place the PCM falls short and the pivots become an attempt to sub for the missing pieces, but won't add those beautiful shapes at all. You know I love my PCM and I showed all of you, guys, what it can do and far more than that... but as most devices one must take it for what it is, not what it can't be. It does really good modulation effects and the pivots are a neat trick to build non-linear events but if talk strictly about delay modulation effects, we get to a place where the stop is quite early to reach. I do love it's chorus and flangers... and the many variety it can do... but there's a lot more out there IF you need more. One thing I do when the PCM doesn't give me what I need... and ALL machines are like that... it's the user hitting their limitations or not... is to create MIDI waveforms on my Eventide. There I can build the real shape of an LFO and turn it into a MIDI CC... which gets patched to a parameter in the PCM80 and sweeps it in the way I need. That's the ****! Now... I hope you are not getting me wrong. I LOVE the PCM80 and I added a second one to it. It's a magnificent machine and I find it way more powerful and creative (even though not as good sounding as) than a 300 or 480, but I learned to respect a device for what it is and what it can do, rather than conceptualizing ways to "make it do" what it can't. This "putting things in the right dimension they have" gives me the chance to take it further... about facts and "castles made on sand" version of them... the total crap I see on the web, where *everybody* is calling something a "TC chorus" or a "TRI ST Chorus" or a "Dim D" or other things like these classic... without really knowing what they do and how... and call their presets with those names, define the "new powers boundaries" of a device. It's not honest and words of descriptions prove they really know very little about the originals. It's a madness tied to the whole modelling lie... which actually often comes closer in the building of those things but short at sounding good. It's an illusion! If something can do something else needs to be determined with true and honest knowledge that goes beyond ears. We need to get back to reality, to facts... get to know them really well and *think* before giving names, labeles and what not. We have to love things for what they are and do... not for a very imperfect idea of what else they "can" do. Or we just switch to something else that really does what we need. cheers!