Logic More Efficient with Computer Resources than DP?

Discussion in 'Recording/Live Sound' started by LSchefman, Nov 10, 2005.


  1. LSchefman

    LSchefman Supporting Member

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    A friend (another studio pro) claims that Logic allows him to run more stuff at once than DP. Way more stuff, says he.

    Is this true? Is Logic more efficient with computer resources than DP?

    I have become very "software instrument" based. If so, I may consider a switch. What say ye, people who have used BOTH on a fast machine, like a G5?

    If ya haven't compared both, or tested both, please don't throw in yer 2 cents. I want to hear from the experts.

    I've used Performer since 1987, and DP since it was released. I don't want to switch, but I will if there are significant advantages.
     
  2. LSchefman

    LSchefman Supporting Member

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    Is it that no one knows, or is it that no one gives a rat's ass?

    :D

    Seriously, I'd like to know the answer. Didn't someone on this board test or write a manual for Logic? I can't remember who or what.
     
  3. MichaelK

    MichaelK Member

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    I'm no expert, but I don't give a rat's ass either.

    Does that help? :D

    Hell, if I had even HEARD anything about it I would tell you. But this is the first I'm hearing of it.
     
  4. Bryan T

    Bryan T Guitar Owner Silver Supporting Member

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    I don't know if DP offers a similar functionality, but the "freeze" function in Logic is supposed to make it quite a bit more efficient than Pro Tools. The basic idea is that it creates a temporary audio file for the frozen track that includes all of the audio processing. So you tweak your reverb settings, hit freeze, it makes a temp audio track, and the reverb doesn't suck up your CPU resources any longer. You can't edit settings when a track is frozen, but it frees up your CPU.

    Bryan
     
  5. MichaelK

    MichaelK Member

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    Orren wrote a book about it.

    Sorry, that slipped my mind when I posted earlier.
     
  6. LSchefman

    LSchefman Supporting Member

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    >>I don't know if DP offers a similar functionality, but the "freeze" function in Logic is supposed to make it quite a bit more efficient than Pro Tools.<<

    DP has the same function.

    I'm told that Logic is more efficient without having to freeze tracks.
     
  7. Bryan T

    Bryan T Guitar Owner Silver Supporting Member

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    I haven't heard that, but I don't really keep up with the latest software developments. It might be worth a call to the companies to get to the bottom of this.

    Bryan
     
  8. g-nem

    g-nem Member

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    The common wisdom is that logic is more efficient than DP, and since apple owns emagic, logic will get more streamlined and efficient with time. I know that on powerbooks DP runs pretty slowly compared to logic.
     
  9. LSchefman

    LSchefman Supporting Member

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    >>I know that on powerbooks DP runs pretty slowly compared to logic.<<

    DP runs as fast on my powerbook as it does on a G5; i.e., everything is instantly accomplished. In fact, I recently did a pretty complicated ad sound track on a powerbook, because some work had to be done at another studio, and no problems encountered.

    One thing that DP has is automatic plug in latency compensation. Logic has some compensation, but not with every plug-in, even AUs, I'm told.

    I like DP. I like the interface, etc.

    But it's all about getting the most out of the computer, so....if people are right about resource efficiency, I may give Logic a try. Never hurts to have another program to screw around with! ;)
     
  10. Mayor McCheese

    Mayor McCheese Member

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    I can't compare Logic to DP, but I can compare it to Pro Tools LE. Logic totally owns LE. It will support more audio tracks, more MIDI tracks, and more effects plugins than LE can handle with less CPU power.

    I had hell mixing my band's CD with LE. I kept getting CPU performance related errors (any of you LE users probably know exactly what I'm talking about). My co-producer uses Logic, and had no problems. None. Zero.
     
  11. Orren

    Orren Member

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    Logic? Did someone say Logic? ;)

    Short answer--yes.

    Longer answer: I'm not 100% sure about DP 4.6, since I'm only up to DP 4.12. Maybe they made some improvements. But one of Logic's claim to fame has always been its amazing level of CPU efficiency.

    Without getting into too many details, Logic does some internal buffering (called "Process Buffer" in the preferences) that distributes resources very well, so that there is more CPU available when needed to what is needed.

    This is especially noticable when using very low latencies. In Cubase, for example, a softsynth that only takes 10% CPU at 512k buffer may take 60% at 64 samples. In Logic, a softsynth that takes 10% CPU at 512k buffer may only take 20% at 64 samples.

    Well, I've used both on my G5, and I've written or co-written 3 books on Logic. Do I count? ;)

    Then again, I only used DP day in and day out for 1 year, Logic for 5 years, so I make no claims to understanding DP as well as I do Logic.

    The main reasons to switch from DP to Logic are the CPU efficency, Ableton-Live style looping, the fact that Logic's built-in softsynths and audio effects are truly world class (you can still find some Pro Tools TDM users sad that the Emagic bundle is no longer sold for TDM!), the Audio Instrument tracks in Logic are far more intuitive than the sort of "two track" bandaid that DP's instrument tracks are, and the fact that compared to DP, it is lightning fast. Seriously--on my G5, Digital Performer is still slow as a dog, and Logic is as fast as I would expect a modern program on a G5 to be.

    But keep in mind that Digital Performer and the German sequencers (Logic, Cubase, Samplitude, etc) use completely different editing paradigms. DP, for example, just sort of spits out MIDI notes in the editor as you go, just one long "piano roll." The Track Overview can put them into "phrases" of sorts, but it's still a more "cut and paste" style of editing. The German sequencers use an "object oriented" approach, in which MIDI notes are placed into a "container" (region, or "soundbite" in DP) and you can cut and place MIDI regions like any other region. This is a MAJOR hurdle for someone coming from one paradigm to learn the other. In my case, coming from Cubase VST, I was never able to feel comfortable with DP's lack of object oriented MIDI editing.

    You can always buy my book though. ;)

    Take care,
    Orren
     
  12. Orren

    Orren Member

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    Logic 7.1 added full latency compensation for any track type. It previously could only compensate for instruments and tracks, not busses (auxes). Now it can for all tracks. It always could compensate in it's limited way both for AU, as well as it's own plug-ins.

    Orren
     
  13. LSchefman

    LSchefman Supporting Member

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    Orren, thank you so much for these posts! You're just the guy I was hoping would respond.

    I watched video on Logic on the Apple website, and in particular Sculpture was absolutely amazing. I WANT that.

    And you're right, having to set up two tracks to get one channel on a softsynth is kinda clunky.

    >>The German sequencers use an "object oriented" approach, in which MIDI notes are placed into a "container" (region, or "soundbite" in DP) and you can cut and place MIDI regions like any other region.<<

    I'm not sure I understand this; you can cut and place MIDI regions like any other region in DP. No problem. I do this all the time. There are several ways to do it, and all seem quite straightforward and simple to me.

    However, if Logic is faster, and uses resources more efficiently, that is the most convincing thing. Not only would it conserve resources, but I could even run a node or two for extra processing with Logic.

    One thing that looks kind of strange to me with Logic is the very dark screen with little white lettering. Do you find that to be a problem, or is it simply something you get used to?

    Anyway, you've convinced me to try Logic Pro. I guess I'll have to buy your book, too! ;)
     
  14. µ¿ z3®ø™

    µ¿ z3®ø™ Member

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    logic, indeed as stated above, runs MUCH leaner than DP.
    however, when tracking a band or multiple channels of audio, i still prefer to use DP. DP, to me is far more intuitive to use as a 'tape recorder' than logic.
    i've been using logic since it was notator on the atari.
    i was using PT HD as a recorder but was tired of throwing incredible amounts of $$$ at digi. when DP made the port to OSX i picked up the crossgrade from logic. i really do like DP for tracking. have i said that already.
    logic has superb plugs that make it a very reasonable (no pun intended) investment in monetary terms. if U are into doing deep midi programing logic's environment is without peer. superb program. lean. solid. fantastic depth. not the greatest multi-track recorder.
    or maybe it's just me.
     
  15. Orren

    Orren Member

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    Welcome! And yes, sculpture is a really amazing piece of work. It doesn't just sound great, but the amount of performance control you have over it is amazing.

    Lets say in Digital Performer, you sing for one minute and record it onto a track named VOCAL. When you are done, what you see on the Sequence Editor for the track VOCAL is a one minute long bar. This bar is one single soundbite.

    Lets say you now want to take the last :30 and repeat it 1:30 into the project. You can take the scissors tool (or a key command) and break up your single soundbite into two soundbites, each :30 seconds long. You can then click-option-drag the second soundbite to 1:30, and you'll now have your second soundbite repeated where you want it.

    In Logic, you handle audio the same way. You record your singing, and get a one minute bar on the Arrange, that can be cut and copied the same way.

    Now, however, lets say you want to record one minute of MIDI notes on a software instrument track called SYNTH.

    In Logic, the process and output is the same as with audio. You click record, and on the Arrange page, you are left with a single bar named SYNTH. Inside this bar, if you open it in a MIDI editor, is all your MIDI notes, but in the Arrange, it's just one long single bar, just like the audio was one bar. Lets say you now want to again take the last :30 and move it to 1:30. Same process as audio--cut the bar in the middle, click-option-drag.

    In DP, when you record your 1 minute of MIDI notes onto the SYNTH track, you will be left with 60 seconds worth of MIDI notes on the Sequence Editor, not a single bar. If you then want to take the final 30 seconds and move it to 1:30, you'll have to copy all those notes from :30 to 1:00, then paste them where you want them. You can also click-option-drag phrases from the Track Overview window, but unless you set up your phrase length in advance, or just got lucky that DP happened to assign the right notes into phrases, that's not necessarily an easier way. And of course you can copy notes to the Clippings window and do it that way.

    Hopefuly the difference makes more sense now. I don't claim to be a DP expert, so there are probably ways to do this that I didn't think of. And of course for one minute of material, this isn't a big deal. But you perhaps can begin to see why folks who write longer and more complex arrangements with lots of MIDI that they like to arrange and rearrange prefer the German way.



    You don't like the new goth look? ;)

    One thing to keep in mind if you have a bright Apple LCD Display (I don't) or an LCD monitor that is very bright (I do) the interface isn't nearly as dark as it appears on other monitors. Second of all, one of the reasons that they did what they did, believe it or not, is that it is the best interface for colorblind people. The shading is drastic (selections are very light, unselected tracks dark, etc) which works very well for them. There is also the fact that mothership (Apple) mandated that the interface be changed to fit the "Pro Application Kit" look of all Apple Pro apps--FCP, Motion, Aperture, DVDSP, etc.

    But anyway, like you suggested, you get used to it. When most of us first saw it, it was quite a shock--it still had the "futuremoderne" Emagic Logic look, but with a sleeker but dark edge. The Emagic boys told us to live with it a while, it's designed to be pretty neutral, and it's true. When you end up with an Arrange filled with brightly colored regions, channel strips with bright Insert slots, plug-in GUIs with their own color schemes, the Logic interface just sort of drifts to the background and becomes unobtrusive.

    FWIW, I still think DP is the best looking of all the sequencers. :)

    Take care,
    Orren
     
  16. MichaelK

    MichaelK Member

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    I know a number of former PT and DP users swear by Logic. Anyone I've asked acknowledges the learning curve but feels it's worth it.

    I talk to a lot of people who think of switching over, but I've not yet heard a Logic user talk about switching back.

    I guess it's like sex with... aw, never mind.
     
  17. LSchefman

    LSchefman Supporting Member

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    >>Hopefuly the difference makes more sense now<<

    Let me see if I understand this correctly: In DP, I would have to select and copy the MIDI data, and then paste it into the bars where I want it.

    But in Logic, the MIDI data works the same way as audio data; I would cut the track as though it was an audio track, and move it where I want it without having to drag the mouse and select every note in the section I want to move?

    Seems like a nice way to work.

    I do have Apple LCD screens, so I will just have to get used to the look of Logic once I switch.

    One last question: Does Logic allow "snip" of data the way DP does, if I want to eliminate, say, four measures? Can I edit MIDI and audio data together (I would expect to be able to do this)?

    >>>>if U are into doing deep midi programing logic's environment is without peer. superb program. lean. solid. fantastic depth. not the greatest multi-track recorder.<<

    I do get into pretty complex MIDI arrangements at times...ads aren't the only thing I do. I've scored TV and film, and in fact do longer format work often, including the whole fake orchestra thing.

    Logic is not as good as DP as a multitrack audio recorder? Hmmmm. How come? That's an important issue.

    Thanks for the feedback, guys!
     
  18. Orren

    Orren Member

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    You got it. :)

    It is. When you get used to it, you won't want to go back.

    I'm afraid I'm not 100% sure of what you mean by that. If you are asking:
    * If you can trim 4 measures off of a region, yes.
    * If you can remove 4 measures from the timeline, yes.

    If you remove time from the timeline, you can either have it simply create an empty hole where the 4 measures you removed was, or you can have the remainder of the song fill in where the measures were removed, so that your entire song is now 4 measures shorter.

    Again, I'm not 100% sure what you mean. If you are asking:
    1) If you can select multiple audio and MIDI regions and trim/move/copy/delete them at the same time: yes
    2) If you can select a MIDI region and an Audio region and merge them into one region, no.

    Of course I don't know specifically what the poster was talking about, but I would say that all the major sequencers are as good as each other as multi-track recorders. They all give you full access to every input and every output on your hardware simultaneously, and allow you to create enough tracks to record and play them all back.

    If I were to guess, I would hazard that he means that DP has traditionally been far simpler to use as a multi-track. Logic has always had a (well-earned) repuation for being rather complicated. To wit: the Environment gave you a sort of "Audio Construction Kit" consisting of "Audio Objects" and you had to basically build your audio environment from the ground up. In other words, if you needed audio 32 tracks, in DP, you would simply create 32 tracks. In Logic, first you would need to create 32 (or more) "Audio Objects" in your environment, then you would create the tracks you needed. Same end result, but extra steps.

    The good news is that Logic has gotten much simpler to operate. The basic paradigm of Audio Objects in the Environment is still there, but its been made far more user friendly. Now you can simply use the "Create Multiple" command in Logic and add as many tracks as you would like, just like in DP. Behind the scenes, Logic creates the Audio Objects, but you don't need to worry about that. All the user experiences is one command creates audio tracks, ready to use.

    Moreover, Logic always starts up with a song loaded. This can either be a blank template, or the last song you were working on (you can choose to start up with absolutely nothing, just like DP, but most users would rather start with their last worked on project, or an empty song). That empty template can already have everything you want for your project--your softsynths already loaded on their tracks, plug-ins you like, window configurations, you name it. So in that sense, I think once you have Logic set up to your liking, in many ways its even easier to operate than the others.

    So at this point, I'd say the argument that Logic is not as desireable a multi-track recorder because its more difficult is loosing ground. As far as operation goes, Logic can record as well as any of them, bit-clean and efficient. And since Logic is more CPU efficent, you can record with lower latencies than you can with the other apps as well. I rutinely multi-track with latencies 128 samples and below, with plug-ins running, no pops or clicks.

    Take care,
    Orren
     
  19. µ¿ z3®ø™

    µ¿ z3®ø™ Member

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    i just find that for the immediacy of creating tracks for tracking or quick overdubbing that i can do it much quicker and intuitively w/ DP as opposed to logic. yes, logic has gotten much better in this regard. as far as audio quality, apart from my lack of love for PCM encoding, i think both are just fine.
    my wish list on the logic suggestion board is that we could have a situation like PT for recording and editing.
    having said that, if i wanna do complex stuff like routing external effects, use softsynths, use amp sims on guitar tracks, monitor several different mixes, all delay compensated..... logic and it's phenomenal environment.
     
  20. LSchefman

    LSchefman Supporting Member

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    >>If you can select multiple audio and MIDI regions and trim/move/copy/delete them at the same time: yes<<

    This is what I meant. And by "snip" I was referring to the DP command where you can remove however many measures from the time line.

    >>Moreover, Logic always starts up with a song loaded. This can either be a blank template, or the last song you were working on (you can choose to start up with absolutely nothing, just like DP, but most users would rather start with their last worked on project, or an empty song). That empty template can already have everything you want for your project--your softsynths already loaded on their tracks, plug-ins you like, window configurations, you name it.<<

    There are several startup choices in DP as well, including multiple template choices, that one can choose to start up with - always have been.

    As far as tracking goes, it's nice to be able to have multiple takes in a single track - I don't know if Logic does this - but from the appearance of the layout, all else looks pretty much 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

    The use of computer resources, however, is becoming more and more important as the world of softsynths/samplers/effects grows. So it would seem that, and the available "extras", are the real beauty of Logic.
     

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