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Looking for an EL34 amp full of hormonic noise...

Spratty59

Member
Messages
176
Hi, like the title states I'm looking for an EL34 amp full of hormonic noise and was wondering if I could get some suggestions on getting that from my current amps? I have a 2205 twin channel JCM 800 which could do with a bit more gain and goes a bit non existant in a band, an Orange Rocker 30 whos sound is too compressed and tight with no harmonic content and lastly a 2266 Vintage modern which isn't gritty enough and is too warm.

I play heavy rock/hardcore music but none of this chug riff metal and I like a lot of higher mids in my tone.

Numerous guitars all with SD JB humbuckers in.

Thanks for any help.
(I was liking the look of the THD Flexi 50? But would like other suggestions also).

As a musical reference think Underoath - Returning empty handed.
 
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dinglehopper

Member
Messages
216
I'm always looking for some "hormonic noise" . . . :p

how about a boost pedal? i'm really liking my atomic boost.
 

Spratty59

Member
Messages
176
Problem with a boot pedal is moving from distorted to clean sounds having to press one pedal is enough effort.
 

WaltC

Member
Messages
2,126
Randall RT50 or RT100. I have it on good authority (don't play metal myself) that this does it all.
 

Peteyvee

Premium Platinum Member
Messages
56,014
I get enough hormonic noise from Ms Vee once a month, I don't need my amps doing it too... :D
 

Spratty59

Member
Messages
176
Randall RT50 or RT100. I have it on good authority (don't play metal myself) that this does it all.
Oh really? I wouldn't say I play metal but I'll look into it. Randall on the whole arent really my sound but I'll take a look none the less.
 

dinglehopper

Member
Messages
216
Problem with a boot pedal is moving from distorted to clean sounds having to press one pedal is enough effort.
it is a lot of effort to lift up a boot and apply it to the "boot pedal" . . . maybe I'm reading this wrong, but are you saying that you want tonal improvement but are unwilling to step on a pedal for it?
 

TimmyP

Member
Messages
2,488
The problem most guys make is insufficient midrange, too much bottom thump, to much high end (sounds like a small kick drum and a bag of angry bees. Is just a noise in the mix.

On an 800, using both channels is sometimes the ticket.

On the Orange, try reducing the negative feedback.
 

Spratty59

Member
Messages
176
I don't think I am capable of making those changes within the amp but I'll look to getting in contact with a tech about it.

Both channels at the same time? how? I'm going to assume thats what the resistor change does?

How do i reduce negative feedback?

Haha sorry :/

I'm thinking I'll ask a similar question but in regards to new amps in the other forum.
 

Stu Blue

Member
Messages
3,167
Hi, like the title states I'm looking for an EL34 amp full of hormonic noise and was wondering if I could get some suggestions on getting that from my current amps? I have a 2205 twin channel JCM 800 which could do with a bit more gain and goes a bit non existant in a band, an Orange Rocker 30 whos sound is too compressed and tight with no harmonic content and lastly a 2266 Vintage modern which isn't gritty enough and is too warm.

I play heavy rock/hardcore music but none of this chug riff metal and I like a lot of higher mids in my tone.

Numerous guitars all with SD JB humbuckers in.

Thanks for any help.
(I was liking the look of the THD Flexi 50? But would like other suggestions also).

As a musical reference think Underoath - Returning empty handed.
Non existant in a band JCM800? There is no such creature. There are however a hoard of players who make any amp non existant in a band. They do that by running way too much gain with their guitar on max all the time and setting the tone controls too low on Marshalls and bass too high on most amps and cranking the mids way higher than T&B on JCM800s.

The most common mistake youngsters and lesser oldies make is using too much distortion and thinking that is is way more distortion than there actually is on a given record they want to copy. The OP is having problems with three very decent amps... clearly the problem is standing in front of the amp.

ADVICE
1) Get your guitar set up perfectly balanced... you hear a ton more harmonic stuff with a guitar that's right at the hundreth on an inch level.

2) Run your tone controls even (all at max, all at noon etc)... 95% of the top tone players do that (Hendrix did)

3) Use less pre-amp gain... the best tone in a band is one that leaves you feeling slightly naked.

4) Take your volume up and down way more.... Hendrix, Cream , Led Zep etc all went from a pin drop whisper to full stack roar. Play quieter behind the vocals and louder for your solos (you have to be able to vary from light touch to heavy touch during the solo to get interesting tone changes in your phrases.....
 

Spratty59

Member
Messages
176
Non existant in a band JCM800? There is no such creature. There are however a hoard of players who make any amp non existant in a band. They do that by running way too much gain with their guitar on max all the time and setting the tone controls too low on Marshalls and bass too high on most amps and cranking the mids way higher than T&B on JCM800s.

The most common mistake youngsters and lesser oldies make is using too much distortion and thinking that is is way more distortion than there actually is on a given record they want to copy. The OP is having problems with three very decent amps... clearly the problem is standing in front of the amp.

ADVICE
1) Get your guitar set up perfectly balanced... you hear a ton more harmonic stuff with a guitar that's right at the hundreth on an inch level.

2) Run your tone controls even (all at max, all at noon etc)... 95% of the top tone players do that (Hendrix did)

3) Use less pre-amp gain... the best tone in a band is one that leaves you feeling slightly naked.

4) Take your volume up and down way more.... Hendrix, Cream , Led Zep etc all went from a pin drop whisper to full stack roar. Play quieter behind the vocals and louder for your solos (you have to be able to vary from light touch to heavy touch during the solo to get interesting tone changes in your phrases.....
Whilst I appreciate your opinion I don't play the same music as the bands you listed and my kind of music doesn't constitute solo's. Also one of my favourite bands use a JCM800 with an attenuator in front of it- cranked volume, cranked gain with a tube screamer in-front of it driving it even harder so your gain theory is wrong. I have these amps sounding good but I can't get the perfect sound from them. The sound in my head is unattainable. Now, I could get it from modding my VM but I'm looking for alternatives.

My guitars set up is maybe something I could look at however and I don't crank the bass. However as to having the mids much higher, why is that a bad idea?
 

Stu Blue

Member
Messages
3,167
Whilst I appreciate your opinion I don't play the same music as the bands you listed and my kind of music doesn't constitute solo's. Also one of my favourite bands use a JCM800 with an attenuator in front of it- cranked volume, cranked gain with a tube screamer in-front of it driving it even harder so your gain theory is wrong. I have these amps sounding good but I can't get the perfect sound from them. The sound in my head is unattainable. Now, I could get it from modding my VM but I'm looking for alternatives.

My guitars set up is maybe something I could look at however and I don't crank the bass. However as to having the mids much higher, why is that a bad idea?
It's not my gain theory, it's fundamental knowledge in amps.... as you increase the gain you increase the distortion/noise....eventually the signal to noise ratio is so bad that you can no longer hear the signal(notes), especially in a band context. You can brighten up the signal to make it audible again (ie the bright channel on a Marshall) hence the metal obsession with a tight low end.

MIds: Distortion is essentially mids.... a very distorted amp will have no true low end and no airy highs. In a band context, a very dirty, middy sound will disappear into the mix as a vague drone unless you turn it up so loud that you can't hear the rest of the band.

In a two guitar band, you really cannot hear what the other guy is playing if he dimes the JCM800 preamp and runs the mid knob higher than the others, especially if he has humbuckers (more mids). If you doubt this truth , measure the output of the cheapest nastiest S/S amp you can find and the one thing it will have is plenty of mids...... highs and lows are expensive.

How Humans hear. If you want to make an amp sound louder than it is, you boost the bass and treble, where the human ear is weakest/insensitive (see the smiley face graphic EQ setting DJs use), not the mids where it is most sensitive. You don't sandpaper your girlfriends G spot do you?

Guitar. Take your JCM800, dime all tones PTMB and drop the preamp down to 1 or 2, check your guitar setup with that tone... every 100th of an inch counts unfortunately... that wickedly bright tone is actually quite playable with a perfectly balanced guitar........ getting the octave jumps piano-like is the key.
 
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phsyconoodler

Member
Messages
4,305
Distortion is essentially mids.... a very distorted amp will have no true low end and no airy highs. In a band context, a very dirty, middy sound will disappear into the mix as a vague drone unless you turn it up so loud that you can't hear the rest of the band
.

Not really.It just takes more power to get those distorted tones.
More gain is not always lost in the mix.There is a balance.
The perfect sound is always being chased by players.Even when they already have it.
The Marshall is a perfect platform for cheap,easy mods that kick them up a notch into nirvana.
 

Stu Blue

Member
Messages
3,167
.

Not really.It just takes more power to get those distorted tones.
More gain is not always lost in the mix.There is a balance.
The perfect sound is always being chased by players.Even when they already have it.
The Marshall is a perfect platform for cheap,easy mods that kick them up a notch into nirvana.
Actually chasing tone for it's own sake is the problem. The bottom line is making music, playing tunes, not making tones. People who are "tonally obsessed" are a pain to play with... always screwing the song and the overall sound of the band.

What's needed is an amp like the 4 hole Marshalls that with tone knobs dime'd makes a country lick sound country , a blues lick bluesy, a rock lick exciting rock, a jazzy lick jazzy. Trouble with TGP is folks want specialist amps that play a particular sound without much effort, or they pedal themselves into that territory.

Since 1969, every ~Modded Marshall I ve heard actually sounded worse on stage and they "played" worse when I used them. Classic amps 4 holers, Fender Deluxe Reverb, Vox AC30 etc... can educate your ears and your touch as a player.... very, very, very few players have the "ears" to voice an amp or "improve" a good one. Very many (in fact most) players can convince themselves that a change is better when it isn't it's a human failing.
 

phsyconoodler

Member
Messages
4,305
Since 1969, every ~Modded Marshall I ve heard actually sounded worse on stage and they "played" worse when I used them.
Not if the basic amp isn't butchered to get some gain.When you add a gain stage or totally alter the amp by changing the slope resistor and range then it may be in your criteria.

But you are right when you say the original 4-hole marshall is a killer standard and hard to follow.But making a statement like 'or they pedal themselves into that territory' is attainable with the 'right' mods.
Not all mods are created equal,some are awful.

1969 is gone bro!
 




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