Looking for ideas to play over Allman bros. "Into the mystic" jam

[leftybill]

I have been invited to a jam where they are playing to do this song. The jam section is G minor/ A flat/ G minor/ F minor. It seem to be G phrygian mode. The C and F minor pentatonic scales work to some extent.
I am looking for other ideas or suggestions.
Thanks.

 

[russ6100]

I have been invited to a jam where they are playing to do this song. The jam section is G minor/ A flat/ G minor/ F minor. It seem to be G phrygian mode. The C and F minor pentatonic scales work to some extent.
I am looking for other ideas or suggestions.
Thanks.

Try notes from Ab & Bb major triads.

Also try F minor bebop!

 

[russ6100]

Also try Dm7b5 arpeggios.

If you're feeling ambitious, try snagging some phrases from one of Miles Davis's / Wayne Shorter's versions of Masqualero. This could go either way - either you'll impress your fellow jam-mates or you may be forcefully ejected from the jam!

 

[leftybill]

Thanks, that was helpful. I am not sure that I get some of the Wayne Shorter stuff.

 

[Pedro58]

I would take a long listen to what Derek Trucks does on the ABB version. It is simply some of the best playing I've ever heard from him or anyone. Sublime. Even fi you don't play slide, his note choice and phrasing is beautiful.



My favorite version is one from the ABB website at Alltel Pavilion in Raleigh NC, 8/10/03.

 

[leftybill]

I would take a long listen to what Derek Trucks does on the ABB version. It is simply some of the best playing I've ever heard from him or anyone. Sublime. Even fi you don't play slide, his note choice and phrasing is beautiful.



My favorite version is one from the ABB website at Alltel Pavilion in Raleigh NC, 8/10/03.

I know, he has a very distinct playing style.

 

[Lucidology]

That's a very, very simple tune to jam over ... how could you go wrong?
Great version BTW... haven't heard their take on it ... very cool!

 

[gennation]

I love that Haynes/Trucks version that was posted. Never heard it before. Wow! Really lives up to the beauty of the tune itself. And that has always been a very beautiful tune.

The first two chords...Gm->Ab. With those two chords followed by a Fm chord it sure look like G Phrygian. But then you have three chords and one scale, and you're probably finding your self boxed in after while. No?

Try this, I find this useful on these type of Im->bII progressions...

Gm - G Natural Minor
Ab - Ab Lydian

I'm going from memory here and know that's a nice sound but I'm not going to elaborate on the Fm until I can get a guitar in my hands.

I have a similar progression in a tune, with Eb->E. And this is similar to another great progression by Zappa which I think was Dm-Eb. For those tunes I use the Im's Natural Minor scale, then Lydian on the second chord.

I would say F Dorian for the Fm chord but don't hold me over the fire on that one. But it would seem the F Dorian and Ab Lydian would be nice bookends for that G Phyrgian sounds, because it's definitely there. But that Im chord can just have a Natural Minor scale, because it's the Im chord in the vamp.

I would also assume that the Ab chord would be Abmaj7 but could borderline on Ab7 without sounding too bad. It would be like throwing some Duke Ellington into the mix. In this case the Ab would start taking on the roll of a tritone sub of D7, the V7 of Gm. It would make the G Natural Minor scale even more fitting.

When I play this tune it's usually the Van Morrison version and the solo is over | Eb | Eb | Eb | Eb | Bb | Bb | Eb | Eb | Gm and Eb are almost the same chord, Gm being a rootless Eb chord. Try playing over that original version (I think Van did the original but not sure) while the Gm Ab Gm Fm are playing. The 8 bar form is the same, so it might just fit. Ab and Fm are in the Key of Eb too. Might not be dead on right in all places but through some experimenting and shaping, you might stumble upon some things you never played or view quite like it before.

Just food for though.

 

[Bluesful]

Try this, I find this useful on these type of Im->bII progressions...

Gm - G Natural Minor
Ab - Ab Lydian

I would also assume that the Ab chord would be Abmaj7 but could borderline on Ab7 without sounding too bad. It would be like throwing some Duke Ellington into the mix. In this case the Ab would start taking on the roll of a tritone sub of D7, the V7 of Gm. It would make the G Natural Minor scale even more fitting.

Before your post I was messing around over that clip with the G natural minor and it sounded nice to me. The Ab lydian is a new idea though, I'll have to try that.

 

[russ6100]

But it would seem the F Dorian and Ab Lydian would be nice bookends for that G Phyrgian sounds, because it's definitely there.

And because F Dorian, Ab Lydian and G Phrygian are all the same notes?

 

[2leod]

Apologies for the cheesy photo montage here, but Colin James' slide work on his version is pretty evocative.

 

[JonR]

And because F Dorian, Ab Lydian and G Phrygian are all the same notes?

Um, exactly. Eb major scale, as we older musicians call it.

OK, in this case, there's enough time on each chord, to explore those individual modal sounds, but those names still don't offer any help for playing it.

As we said in the other modes thread, OBVIOUSLY you start from the chord tones - and you know those arpeggios all over the neck - but you know the scale all over the neck too.
In fact, you're playing the scale when you play the chords - you can't avoid it; the chords (between them) map the scale on the fretboard in the most useful (and obvious) way. So you play the chords and fit the other scale notes (the notes in the other chords) between. Why make it more complicated? (Don't know your arpeggios? Learn the damn things! )

Naturally, if you know all that, and find the given set of notes too dull, you're free to introduce chromatics.
(And I agree with Pedro58: check what they're doing on that video. Lovely stuff.)

 

[Pedro58]

I love Colin James

Apologies for the cheesy photo montage here, but Colin James' slide work on his version is pretty evocative.

 

[ripgtr]

It's pretty simple.
Listening to the ABB vesion, they are in Eb.
They are soloing over the ii, iii and IV in Eb.
I would play Eb major, if in this key, just being aware of what the power tones of each chord are within the scale.

In your example, sounds like they are in E, so E major.

 

[gennation]

And because F Dorian, Ab Lydian and G Phrygian are all the same notes?

Right, it's a gimme. That's what I was getting at. Expanding beyond the norm is the G Natural Minor for the Gm chord.

 

[JonR]

Right, it's a gimme. That's what I was getting at. Expanding beyond the norm is the G Natural Minor for the Gm chord.

I agree. There's a lot of time on that Gm, and the phrygian Ab (b2) might not be a sound you want all the time.

In Hendrix's "Little Wing", there's a Bm in key of G, but he put a C# on it all the same - because it obviously sounded better than C.

 

[gennation]

Gave it a quick run yesterday. Yes, the G Natural Minor -> Ab Lydian -> G Natural Minor -> F Dorian idea is the way to go. Since the Ab Lydian and F Dorian are the same notes just think of it as G Natural Minor -> Ab Lydian -> G Natural Minor -> Ab Lydian. Of course you can "think" of it as three scales, but for me, I find I can improv more freely when I tackle things more limited while still covering all the basis. It cuts out the linear clutter and allows me to plays thing that are more on top of each other and see what's really changing. Make sense?

Meaning, instead of seeing it from three places (G, Ab, and F) this is going to show you that the only difference between these two scales is the A and Ab notes. The A being the 9 of Gm, or from a beautiful Gm9 chord, and Ab being the Root of the Ab chord and the Ab also being the m3 of Fm, so it's a prominent note/interval to lean on whether you're on Ab or Fm, and...it resolves a half step down to G or up a half step to A, both are sweet notes for the Gm (or Gm9) chord. As well, G and A move to the Ab by a half step. The half steps are the glue to the changes even more so than the chords themselves. Because...THAT's what's changing and the chords are build around those simple little half step moves.

Try it, just take a 1st position G Nat Min or G Min Pent a 1st position Ab Lydian or Ab Maj Pent and learn to "make that change".

Another idea...

Think of the progression as a phrase the has as an 8 bar boarder but moves every two bars:

||: Gm | Gm | Ab | Ab | Gm | Gm | Fm | Fm :||

On every other bar (like bars 2, 4, 6, and 8) make that push to the new scale. Play something related to the NEXT chord instead of the current chord. Tell it your moving.

Another idea...

Now let's look at other ways to make this change based on harmony, or basic major and minor moves...

Let's look at the chord in the Key of G Minor, and the chord in the Key of Eb Major (where the Ab and Fm chords are derived from, and the actual Key the song is in):

G Minor: Gm Amb5 Bb Cm Dm Eb F Gm
Eb Major: Eb Fm Gm Ab Bb Cm Dmb5 Eb

For almost any tune that changes scales I usually go through the process of lining things up like this. What I look for is common chord Root notes that can be toggled between major and minor harmonies, or vice verse.

I haven't explored this sound on guitar yet but here's where I would go JUST by looking at those Keys...

In those Key chords I see F and Fm. So, what I would try and do here is to first not think of scales at all but just think of those two chords and where they lie in the progression:

Gm Ab Gm Fm becomes F Fm F Fm

Just play around with those two simple triads for a while (F and Fm). This helps you learn on common tones and extension between the chords but even more important, it shows you just how important and strong the A to Ab and Ab to A half step change is...because it's the ONLY change you have to work with to make a strong statement. You can't miss that strong, obvious, sound.

As time goes on you'll start adding notes to the chords (ending up with F7 and Fm7) and you'll start piling on notes to makes scales (to get F Mixolydian and F Dorian in the end)...

But...

the idea is to learn that regardless of how many notes you pile on top, the ONLY thing still changing is the A to Ab and Ab to A. And the further you get away from respecting that change, the less meaningful your lines could become.

And here's another idea...

Let's try this to take a step further...since the whole thing resolves to Gm, let's also realize the Fm and Ab are pretty much related to each other as extensions of each other...then...follow me on this...don't forget that Ab is also related to Gm as the Root of the bV sub of D7 (D7 is the V7 of Gm, ad Ab7 is the bV sub of D7).

So, for bar 8 or more importantly the last two beats of bar 8, play or think Ab7, or Ab13. This gives you some outside notes using Ab Lydian Dominant.

You can see it laid out like this:

||: Gm | Gm | Ab | Ab | Gm | Gm | Fm | Fm Ab7 :||

To bring all these ideas together, breaking this thing out in chords, there a number of ways to look at it...

||: Gm | Gm | Ab | Ab | Gm | Gm | Fm | Fm :||

||: F | F | Fm | Fm | F | F | Fm | Fm :||

||: F7 | F7 | Fm7 | Fm7 | F7 | F7 | Fm7 | Fm7 :||

||: Gm | Gm | Ab | Ab | Gm | Gm | Fm | Fm Ab7 :||

And let's not forget the Key of the song, Eb. So you can just play in Eb and adjust notes as the chords change. Another great, simple idea.

Is one better than the other, the only one who can say that is you. From a players perspective these give you options that turn into sounds. And they might not sound great right out of the box but the more you pursue using them the more you will craft them into sounding correct to yourself as well as showing you there are many many ways to play some of the simplest progression that you won't always see if you only look at it from one perspective.

Have fun!

 

[gennation]

Also...

Since we know G Natural Minor and G Phrygian sound fine, super impose them onto each to create one scale out of both. What this gives you is the chromatic line of G Ab A Bb.