Looks like Fractal Devices are getting a new Modeling Update - Cygnus

V|J

Member
Messages
2,863
Is there still scope of improvement?

Tried the Helix Native a few days ago and it blew me away.. despite playing through cheap desktop speakers..

Based on all the threads I've read, I honestly didn't expect modeling to be this good.
Can't imagine how much better the Fractal platform would be like.

Lol, I almost dropped the plan of buying my first tube amp..
Won't happen though but I'll surely get a modeler someday.
 
Last edited:

Watt McCo

Member
Messages
12,948
Is there still scope of improvement?

Tried the Helix Native a few days and it blew me away.. despite playing through cheap desktop speakers..

I'm not saying it's so, but "because" might be the better word than "despite" here. A modeler will only sound as good or bad as the speakers it's run through allow it. Friends don't let friends spend $1000+ on a modeler only to run them through cheap desktop speakers.
 

bdrepko

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
2,968
I would immediately buy an FM3 if this were the case. Running out of processing power is the only thing holding me back and contemplating the neural quad cortex. If they managed to reduce CPU usage to a level similar to the Helix, it would mean a huge increase in available power. Would be a no brainer for my needs and budget. I really hope this is whats happening. Dammit, you guys are getting my hopes up.
I dont know what how you would use it, but I find the FM3 powerful enough for pretty much everything I would ever need. But I play 80's arena rock and don't use a ton of effects.
 

V|J

Member
Messages
2,863
I'm not saying it's so, but "because" might be the better word than "despite" here. A modeler will only sound as good or bad as the speakers it's run through allow it. Friends don't let friends spend $1000+ on a modeler only to run them through cheap desktop speakers.
Haha, true.
I'm lucky that I got to play through an amp in the first place.
Been here with my parents since last year and I have only played unplugged all these months..

As for speakers, my first try was through iPhone earbuds.. :hide2
and it still sounded nice BUT the differences between cabs was probably not as pronounced.
I'll use something FRFR when I finally get a modeler.
 

V|J

Member
Messages
2,863
I'm not saying it's so, but "because" might be the better word than "despite" here. A modeler will only sound as good or bad as the speakers it's run through allow it. Friends don't let friends spend $1000+ on a modeler only to run them through cheap desktop speakers.
Reading your post again, do you mean I enjoyed the sound more because I played through desktop speakers?
They have pronounced bass..
Is it less enjoyable (and more honest) a sound when monitoring through FRFR?
 

Watt McCo

Member
Messages
12,948
Reading your post again, do you mean I enjoyed the sound more because I played through desktop speakers?
They have pronounced bass..
Is it less enjoyable (and more honest) a sound when monitoring through FRFR?
I'm not saying anything in particular other than don't make a judgement of a device's performance based on a sub-par monitoring experience. Could be hiding anomalies anywhere. The best monitors don't just give an honest frequency response, they also have a clarity that lets you hear all the details...which sometimes is a good thing, other times not.
 
Messages
2,583
Something like "tube curves refined to closer match a real tube under various plate loads", will have my attention and curiosity more than "you ain't heard ****, until you hear Helga", because that's just tells me they don't believe in anything they've done previously.

Not so sure about that. My expertise is in the area of exercise science (I founded and ran the IART certification company for years, wrote several books (5,000 pages worth), and from my early writings you can see a definite expansion of ideas, methods and directions that almost seems counter to what I wrote before. I believed very much in what I wrote in the early years, but with experience and understanding, the information became more fine-tuned and broad.
 

hotrats73

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
4,187
I don't follow the Fractal forum all that closely, but the context I got fr reading a couple of these related threads last night was that references to "chug" were inside jokes. One might even call them snark. So it's kinda like judging a jiveturkey post based on the plain meaning of the words used and thinking you "get" it. The release notes with any firmware are always straight up technical, which is far better than the Line 6 approach of vaguely implying updates might have been made to the modeling engine on internet forum, but never actually mentioning anything about it in release notes, and never confirming/denying whether anything changed in the modeling when on release day you get folks declaring another veil having been lifted.

Ok, now it makes more sense.

It's the "golden ears" argument which is very hard to prove or disprove. But it is true that you do learn to discern things with more experience. I am sure anyone who has played guitar for a good amount of time is now better able to tell nuances in sound than they did when they started.

I don't think Cliff claims to have superpowers, just that as he gains more experience he can spot differences that he maybe ignored previously. That's no different from say an experienced studio engineer. How far you can go in perceiving that kind of differences is something that is very difficult to prove.

But people's hearing also changes as they get older and of course hearing damage (which is typical for musicians) can have an effect. I would not be surprised that some amps are voiced extremely bright because the designers of said amps did not hear them like that due to age or injury related hearing loss.

The problem is that it's extremely easy to fool the human ear and alter perception via visual bias. That's why studio engineers have those knobs that do nothing for artists who want "more of X" for no good reason. They turn the knob and the artists says "yeah, now it sounds good" even though nothing changed in the audio.

Volume level difference can be perceived as better vs worse and if you are not able to A/B with a footswitch just some time between evaluations of two different setups can make you hear things that are not there. Hell, just seeing a real amp vs some tiny box is going to alter your perception, possibly making you favor the real amp because that's what you know makes those sweet tones.

That's one of the conundrums of digital modeling where you can measure and model what the circuit does to your best effort but then you have the human experience that translates that into things like how something feels to play even though what you really experience is hearing how the whole signal chain reacts together.

Being a sound engineer myself I understand his point. But I would never sell my services saying I have golden ears...don't know it's just a though that came to me reading those words. Within the context Watt McCo provided it makes more sense.


There's nothing mystical about it. With practice, the ability to perceive nuances and subtleties can and does improve over time.

That's true at least to some level. But justifiying things based on that I don't know. Doesn't look the best way to run a business to me.
Watt McCo added some context to those words and thay make more sense to me.
 

JiveTurkey

Trumpets and Tants
Silver Supporting Member
Messages
25,591
The thing I have found is you can be super skeptical of "more realer than real" hyperbole yet ALSO be floored by how great the modeling is in Fractal gear. It's sort a weird place to be in. Still sounds killer either way \m/ Even if Cliff's delivery might not be your thing.
 

Will Chen

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
7,734
*yawn* More Fractal marketing drivel in response to the hype of a competing product. Happens every time.

Ha! To be honest, I was extremely pleased with the AX8 when I had it. At that point Ares I think it was called was released and then supposedly "some" of the modeling made it into the AX8 and I couldn't tell the difference. Even listening to A/B clips between axe modeling generations, aurally I don't hear any large leaps. Can't speak to feel, could have been some drastic jumps somewhere along the line. But I can't blame a company for selling their never ending development cycle which one gets for free (to a certain point) if you have one of their products.
 

Hapless

Member
Messages
431
The thing I have found is you can be super skeptical of "more realer than real" hyperbole yet ALSO be floored by how great the modeling is in Fractal gear. It's sort a weird place to be in. Still sounds killer either way \m/ Even if Cliff's delivery might not be your thing.
Yes. With regard to the actual modeling, hardware issues notwithstanding, when has a Fractal product not delivered?
Ha! To be honest, I was extremely pleased with the AX8 when I had it. At that point Ares I think it was called was released and then supposedly "some" of the modeling made it into the AX8 and I couldn't tell the difference. Even listening to A/B clips between axe modeling generations, aurally I don't hear any large leaps. Can't speak to feel, could have been some drastic jumps somewhere along the line. But I can't blame a company for selling their never ending development cycle which one gets for free (to a certain point) if you have one of their products.

I'd wager the reason you didn't notice any improvement was because the AX8 never got Ares. The Axe II did.
 

Watt McCo

Member
Messages
12,948
Yes. With regard to the actual modeling, hardware issues notwithstanding, when has a Fractal product not delivered?


I'd wager the reason you didn't notice any improvement was because the AX8 never got Ares. The Axe II did.
AX8 did get Ares, actually. A little later than the II.
 

ColdFrixion

Member
Messages
5,736
That's true at least to some level. But justifiying things based on that I don't know. Watt McCo added some context to those words and thay make more sense to me.

Watt's comment wasn't related to the context of the quote I posted. The fact is, the more you practice listening, the better you get at perceiving subtleties and nuances that weren't perceptible before. There's nothing mystical about it. Simply put, practice makes perfect. Talk to any mix engineer worth his or her salt and they'll likely tell you the same thing.

Doesn't look the best way to run a business to me.

What doesn't look like the best way to run a business? What are you talking about?
 
Last edited:




Top Bottom