Lovepedal Amp 11

Discussion in 'Effects, Pedals, Strings & Things' started by David-R, Oct 25, 2010.

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  1. jdel77

    jdel77 Supporting Member

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    jpagey, call me slow, call me coffee deprived, or call me late for dinner, but could you clarify your point above using those series of quotes? Are you saying there is an inconsistent line of reasoning here?
    As i read it (and this is just my interpretation):

    Q1- ethics can be subjective, cloning may not be illegal
    Q2- if cloning is ok, why the subjective anger towards cloning a mass-marketed pedal or a boutique pedal
    Q3- morals vs. intellectual property
    Q4- Same as Q2
    Q5- Same as Q4 and Q2

    What's your point mate?
     
  2. rewog

    rewog Member

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    Would you say they're close ?

    I have to say that I know how good Realfi's ear is and how carefully he auditions things.. so for him to say that with the right settings they're pretty much the same carries a lot of weight with me.
    Especially when the schematic backs it up.

    Important to remember that no-one has disputed the schematics, and if it's the same electronically, then they have to sound the same.
    You can't fool electrons (although it seems a lot of people here don't really trust them.. :) ).
    If that's the case then it's simply a matter of getting the knob settings right to allow for the different pots.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2011
  3. IvIark

    IvIark Member

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    Oh jpagey jpagey jpagey, you still don't get it do you? I honestly would have thought after all this time it would have clicked into place. We've been accused of being Paul's fanboys and attacking Sean on his behalf but you still don't get what it's all about.

    It's absolutely nothing to do with cloning pedals and never has been about that although I will say that Paul is one of the few that I wouldn't dream of cloning because he makes a great product at a great price. Why buy a copy off Sean when I can buy (and have bought) the original. My issue has always been with builders who claim design plaudits (guru?!) for something they took from someone else. It always has been and always will be. Of course there is a bonus when some people who were up in arms about the Klon being cloned by a relatively unknown builder, suddenly become advocates of competitive products when one of their favourites may have been proven to have done exactly that.

    To be honest though, you're the last person I would aim any of this at. I think you're too far gone to recognise or even attempt to find out the reality of a situation if it contradicted that warm and squishy feeling you seem to need.
     
  4. Improbable Joe

    Improbable Joe Member

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    :agree

    The ethics of guitar/amp/pedal design are a little fuzzy, which bothers me to no end. I'm always a little bit bothered by the fact that almost everyone "borrows" from everyone else plus or minus a little spin on it. It doesn't help that we're all so heavily influenced by our exposure to "classic" looks and sounds, and there's probably a certain amount of inborn preference for some looks/sounds over others that we can't shake if we try. There's a relatively tiny range of looks and sounds that we'll accept as "right", and deviating too far from it will put you out of business.

    If people are cool with TS clones, and they are VERY cool with amps that are direct copies of Fender and Marshall designs, then I don't see how they can possibly attack anyone for building clones of other pedals as well. I'm not sure where the line is, but I know it needs to be consistently applied.
     
  5. IvIark

    IvIark Member

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    Hallelujah [​IMG]
    You got in 3 minutes what jpagey didn't get in 3 years.
     
  6. turtleheadblues

    turtleheadblues Senior Member

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  7. Improbable Joe

    Improbable Joe Member

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    Well, it seemed fairly obvious... on account of the general ambiguity of the situation. I'm not sure how much you'd have to avoid clones and knockoffs to maintain absolute purity on the subject, but it seems to me that you'd at least have to stick with things that were first manufactured 50-70 years ago for amps and electric guitars, and maybe 40-50 years on pedals. If you're not playing a vintage Les Paul through a vintage Fender amp using only those effects available in the '60s, you're probably playing a clone or modified clone of something else.

    I'll bet if you looked up some of the people who complain about some mojo-soaked pedals being cloned, they're the same people who post in those threads about who makes the best whatever-style guitars or amps where no one even remotely considers buying the original.
     
  8. Husky

    Husky Gold Supporting Member

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    You cant get a patent for electronic circuits or values unless it is something that has never been done before and usually when the parts were never intended to be used that way. You have a better chance of getting a patent on a feature like Random access programable switching. I think Bradshaw could have had one on that since he was the first. Amp and pedal schematics... forget it. Make them reasonably priced and there is no reason for people to copy them. Also don't forget that a patent doesn't mean jack unless you have the money to fight for it. Patent fights are extremely expensive. Guitar bodies and headstock shapes are trademarks usually.
     
  9. digiTED

    digiTED rock > talk

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    Or, if you can't clear a wait list in less than 4-6 months apparently.

    Sent from my hand office
     
  10. Improbable Joe

    Improbable Joe Member

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    Damn, you beat me to it.
     
  11. Husky

    Husky Gold Supporting Member

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    I guess I need to go back and read the thread but it is so long !
    Yes I understand the unobtainium.

    Also not saying it is correct in the slightest bit but if someone copies a JCM800 with very little changes then it is OK by mostly because they copied a large evil corporation who doesn't care about their customers. Copy a small boutique guy who copied the Marshall and made some small tweaks and then it is blasphemy. Not saying it is right either way but it seems to be what people feel. One thing I find though is that Pedal groups who R&D pedals think it is fine to post schematics and clones. Then you get guys like beringer pulling those schematics and making clones. You rarely see amp forums where guys who reverse engineer (R&D) current production boutique amps and post their schematics yet that seem to be OK in the pedal world.
     
  12. Jeffery

    Jeffery Member

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    Has it occurred to anyone that Paul C and Sean are really the same person...Jim Dunlop. Has anyone ever seen them both in the same room at the same time? Have I spend too much time on this forum? I'm guessing yes...
     
  13. digiTED

    digiTED rock > talk

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    :) either that or one is the evil twin....;)

    Sent from my hand office
     
  14. rob2001

    rob2001 Member

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    Here's were I see a problem. It's obvious when a guitar is copied. The "inspired by" is right there to see. And usually big improvements are made. But the general guitar playing population has no idea when an electronic device is copied. Some may hear similarities AFTER THEY HAVE BOUGHT something but will probably still think it's something totally new because it looks different.

    Over the last 5-7 years I think copying and cloning have been exposed and I see many builders that are happy to come straight out and say "this is inspired by XXXXX, but I've done my own thing with it". I see it all the time with D style amp builders here. And many really are doing new and different things with existing designs.

    THAT has always been true and the Bassman/JTM 45 POV can be applied. Taking an existing design from a current producer, copying it and labeling it as something new is a different scenario. I certainly don't presume to speak for anyone and how they interpret this but I'll bet this situation would be very different if this new pedal was billed and built as "inspired by XXX with my own things added". That, at least gives credit to the guy or company, boutique or mass produced, that did the hard R&D on a product.
     
  15. jpagey

    jpagey Supporting Member

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    Here's my point culled from quotes re: cloning a Klon and marketing the klone as a Klon Clone", from people trying to tar and feather LP here:

    1. I leave the ethics to the individual, where it belongs.
    2. I'm more interested in the claims that cloning pedal circuits is illegal...I do not believe they are.
    3. Cloning is 100% legal.
    4. I don't care if you clone TS808s, Suhr clone Strats, Landgraff clones Vex or JHS clones Klons, the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. My one and only objection is people making out that someone cloning the Klon is tantamount to wearing a white hood and carrying a flaming cross.

    Now, these people will post a schematic to let you build a Klon clone; attack Klon's builder and defend the right of anyone to build the pedal and market it as a Klon Clone.

    In THIS case, we have a non clone, not marketed as a Timmy/Tim Clone; doesn't sound like a Tim/Timmy a clone; and doesn't work as a Tim/Timmy clone.

    PaulC has indicated he believes LP's explanation. Sorry, not good enough for these people.

    The same people who have hounded LP for years think they smell blood in the water. The facts are that they only support builders who provide them with schematics and help them with their failed attempts to build the builder's pedal. If a builder refuses to give them their schematic(s), this type of campaign ensues.

    They will not affect LP's sales and PaulC seems to be working as hard as he can to reduce his months long backlog.

    They are both fine products, made by fine builders and fine people. The rest is nonsense. I've bought every LP pedal I have from LP, Tonefactor and eBay, so I am confident in my position.

    Rather than attack my points, they have chosen to attack me personally, -no skin off my big nose. If they could counter my points they would.

    I'm sorry they are jealous of LP's success.

    I'm responding to the blatant hypocrisy by the advocates of Klon Cloners.
     
  16. rewog

    rewog Member

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    How would you know where those companies get their schematics ?

    If they want to copy a circuit, don't you think they'd just buy a pedal and trace it themselves, rather than trust what someone else had done and assume it's correct ?
     
  17. PaulC

    PaulC Member

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    For the record... I started doing this full time 3 years ago. Within a month of quiting my day we found out my mother has cancer. Add that on top of the economy, dano cloning, parts supply issues, no help from banks... Things have been hard.

    Since the end of the year the health of my mother has taken a turn for the worse. We're looking at it ending in April unless something happens.

    After that is over I will no longer have to spend the night with her helping her get through this. I'll no longer have to spend money helping her out, and I can put it back into the business. I'll be able to focus more on the pedals, and get caught up. I'm just hoping the market will not be flooded, and I'll still have something to work with.

    Not crying - just showing the reasons why I've not been able to get these things out, and why a situation like this is so hard. I've seen people saying they are buying the amp 11 not because it's a lovepedal, but because they can get a Timmy now. With everything going on that's a hard thing to see. I'm doing the best I can.

    PaulC
    tim/timmy pedals
    myspace.com/paulcaudio
     
  18. IvIark

    IvIark Member

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    :bkw
     
  19. digiTED

    digiTED rock > talk

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    Hi, PaulC. Thx for chiming in here. My point was not meant as a jab at you or LP! I simply wanted to point out that a wait time in the months range could encourage another builder to provide a (very) similar product to fill the demand; RE in the context of the discussion regarding the ethics and motivations for cloning. BTW, I'm on your list currently and am happy to wait. If I needed a Tim(my) instantly I'd just get one from one of your retailers.

    Very sorry to hear about your mother. I went through 3 years of cancer support with my wife and can certainly empathize. Prayers to you and yours.

    Sent from my hand office
     
  20. turtleheadblues

    turtleheadblues Senior Member

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    Paul first off I wish your mother the best. I know its not my place but why dont you consider charging what your pedals are worth? If you cant keep up it only makes sense. That extra flipper money deserves to be in your pocket. Raise the Timmy to 179.00. They will still sell used for more and your bottom line goes up. It is the cost of doing business. You have built up the Tim and Timmy to its current status and you deserve better. You can change your future today if you choose to. NOONE will look down on you for selling these for what they are worth to make a living. It sounds like your customers and dealers are making more on your time and efforts than you are. YOU have to take control. I am sure I do not see the entire picture but every one here wants to see you do well.
    Totally just my 2 cents.
     
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