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Lovepedal Amp 11

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olejason

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4,012
You rarely see amp forums where guys who reverse engineer (R&D) current production boutique amps and post their schematics yet that seem to be OK in the pedal world.
Well it's not because people have some moral code to not post amp schematics. Most hobbyists don't have the space or money to build boutique amps. With some amps you can be looking at well north of $1k just for parts. Pedals rarely contain over $100 in parts and usually much less.
 

screamingduck

Platinum Supporting Member
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3,044
For the record... I started doing this full time 3 years ago. Within a month of quiting my day we found out my mother has cancer. Add that on top of the economy, dano cloning, parts supply issues, no help from banks... Things have been hard.

Since the end of the year the health of my mother has taken a turn for the worse. We're looking at it ending in April unless something happens.

After that is over I will no longer have to spend the night with her helping her get through this. I'll no longer have to spend money helping her out, and I can put it back into the business. I'll be able to focus more on the pedals, and get caught up. I'm just hoping the market will not be flooded, and I'll still have something to work with.

Not crying - just showing the reasons why I've not been able to get these things out, and why a situation like this is so hard. I've seen people saying they are buying the amp 11 not because it's a lovepedal, but because they can get a Timmy now. With everything going on that's a hard thing to see. I'm doing the best I can.

PaulC
tim/timmy pedals
myspace.com/paulcaudio

I sincerely wish you and your Mom the very best. My Mom has beaten back leukemia twice (!) now though the last time it got to the point where she was in Hospice for a month as the doctors had given up. Miracles do happen. On the other side, my Dad was diagnosed with cancer many years ago and left this world in a matter of six months. Again, that is the cycle of life in all it's beauty and pain. My heartfelt thoughts and prayers go out to you and your family.
 

drbob1

Gold Supporting Member
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27,239
Paul, thanks again for filling us in. I wish your mother all the best, there's a hardness to facing a parent's mortality that can't be overstated (after all, they're the only ones in the world we've known all our lives). Please accept my wishes for peace during this time. And please know the high regard you're held in here, and FSB! The list of builders with your sense of humility and ethics is short!
 

big mike

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
12,558
I think this has run it's course. It's now a circular argument, no one is going to convince anyone of anything. Both sides have had their say, and it's now become not a thread about a specific pedal, but a moral/ethics discussion and strayed from topic.

As I say, both sides have weighed in, No one's convincing anyone of anything different than what they believe, time to head off to other discussions and call this a draw.
 

popinvasion

Member
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7,535
I think this has run it's course. It's now a circular argument, no one is going to convince anyone of anything. Both sides have had their say, and it's now become not a thread about a specific pedal, but a moral/ethics discussion and strayed from topic.

As I say, both sides have weighed in, No one's convincing anyone of anything different than what they believe, time to head off to other discussions and call this a draw.

Maybe your right. But I do think as a community any new lovepedal amp 11 threads that pop up we do have an obligation to point out that the amp 11 is a timmy clone. I agree these threads can stray from the conversation but just as a sunface is a fuzzface clone, well maybe morally its entirely different but we owe it to future readers to know the amp 11 is a clone. Just sayin.
 

big mike

Platinum Supporting Member
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12,558
Maybe your right. But I do think as a community any new lovepedal amp 11 threads that pop up we do have an obligation to point out that the amp 11 is a timmy clone. I agree these threads can stray from the conversation but just as a sunface is a fuzzface clone, well maybe morally its entirely different but we owe it to future readers to know the amp 11 is a clone. Just sayin.
How is it YOUR obligation? How is it anyone's?

That's the rub. People all have their opinion on the subject (I have my own and it will remain private) and will NOT be convinced they could be wrong.
 

popinvasion

Member
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7,535
How is it YOUR obligation? How is it anyone's?

That's the rub. People all have their opinion on the subject (I have my own and it will remain private) and will NOT be convinced they could be wrong.

There's no obligation for anyone passed the principles involved IMO.
I am not arguing with you, but anytime you see a thread that is titled what is a good fuzzface clone you get people recommending the sunface. If you look at the sunface and fuzzface schematics you can see why, they are super close. Same with the amp11 schematic and timmy schematic, super super close, some would say too close. What I am saying is simple, the obvious should not be a punishable offense when pointed out. Now you can have the opinion that is not based on facts but is based on emotions that they are entirely different animals. Fine, but some of us can look at the schematic and it shouldn't be a problem in the future for us to just state our opinion on it. That is all.
 

Resonance7

Member
Messages
1,709
Paul first off I wish your mother the best. I know its not my place but why dont you consider charging what your pedals are worth? If you cant keep up it only makes sense. That extra flipper money deserves to be in your pocket. Raise the Timmy to 179.00. They will still sell used for more and your bottom line goes up. It is the cost of doing business. You have built up the Tim and Timmy to its current status and you deserve better. You can change your future today if you choose to. NOONE will look down on you for selling these for what they are worth to make a living. It sounds like your customers and dealers are making more on your time and efforts than you are. YOU have to take control. I am sure I do not see the entire picture but every one here wants to see you do well.
Totally just my 2 cents.

Agreed completely...

I am on the waiting list for a Tim, and I still think they should be selling for $250+ (before the scalpers have time to get their mitts on 'em)
 

Brian Scherzer

Staff member
Messages
5,148
I have kept my yapper shut during this storm. I was aware of Paul's family situation because of his earlier posts. Might I suggest that folks pause for a while and give the pedal cloning argument a rest? There is plenty of time in the future for people to argue about who cloned what and the ethics behind it. Right now, it seems to me that Paul should be left alone to tend to his mother. In my world, taking care of one's family trumps everything else. It is obvious to me that now is not the time for this debate.
 

NetStar

Member
Messages
668
You rarely see amp forums where guys who reverse engineer (R&D) current production boutique amps and post their schematics yet that seem to be OK in the pedal world.
Either you're a comedy genius or this is beautiful irony.

Out.
 

popinvasion

Member
Messages
7,535
I have kept my yapper shut during this storm. I was aware of Paul's family situation because of his earlier posts. Might I suggest that folks pause for a while and give the pedal cloning argument a rest? There is plenty of time in the future for people to argue about who cloned what and the ethics behind it. Right now, it seems to me that Paul should be left alone to tend to his mother. In my world, taking care of one's family trumps everything else. It is obvious to me that now is not the time for this debate.

I think we can all agree with this. However it hurts paul and his business when he loses business from a cloner. From my reading of his posts he is upset that people are cashing in on his wait time by releasing a very similar pedal. Why should we not support him during his time of need?
 

jb1911

Member
Messages
5,192
Paul first off I wish your mother the best. I know its not my place but why dont you consider charging what your pedals are worth? If you cant keep up it only makes sense. That extra flipper money deserves to be in your pocket. Raise the Timmy to 179.00. They will still sell used for more and your bottom line goes up. It is the cost of doing business. You have built up the Tim and Timmy to its current status and you deserve better. You can change your future today if you choose to. NOONE will look down on you for selling these for what they are worth to make a living. It sounds like your customers and dealers are making more on your time and efforts than you are. YOU have to take control. I am sure I do not see the entire picture but every one here wants to see you do well.
Totally just my 2 cents.
This times one billion.
 

PatrickE_FenderADV

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
26,840
If people are cool with TS clones, and they are VERY cool with amps that are direct copies of Fender and Marshall designs, then I don't see how they can possibly attack anyone for building clones of other pedals as well. I'm not sure where the line is, but I know it needs to be consistently applied.
This is on the mark... It would appear that there's a double standard on the "boutique" pedal front. How many Fender & Marshall & Dumble clones are out there today? Do we see this type of reply in threads regarding the amps we all love to love???

EDIT... I also got to thinking about Teles. Who here doesn't love a Nash or K-line T-type??? TGP is always raving about all the tele copies and how they compare to Leo's design.
 
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Husky

Member
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11,831
How would you know where those companies get their schematics ?

If they want to copy a circuit, don't you think they'd just buy a pedal and trace it themselves, rather than trust what someone else had done and assume it's correct ?
I don't know, they could buy a unit and R&D it themselves but it certainly is easier if they already find a schematic and work from there, it also saves them from going through much of the R&D work.

That doesn't make any of it right though, how would you like to see people taking your products to try and copy it, tearing the unit apart, then sell and post layouts and schematics so everyone with a soldering iron can try and make their own. This means that there is profit being made off your design work, it is no longer for personal education.

Why do you only really find this in the pedal community except for a few isolated out of print amps. Maybe it is the same but much lower cost so it makes it doable to destroy $200 and can be built in a garage easier and cheaper than an amp. I occasionally get my pedals back that have been re-sold and were taken apart. Something is wrong with them having to do with a failed reverse engineering attempts. It is pretty frustrating to tell the new customer he purchased a pedal that was dismantled and his warranty is void. Do pedal makers need to encase everything so it self destructs?
 
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Husky

Member
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11,831
Either you're a comedy genius or this is beautiful irony.

Out.
Well R&D actually means Rip off & Duplicate, well known among engineer humor. I am not so much talking about what is happening between the pedals in this thread being accused of copying another pedal since I did not read all the pages when I jumped in but was just responding to a post with my name in it. Somehow I am getting deeper in to the discussion.
These are in no way opinions on the Timmy, Paul or anyone else, I know nothing about these specifics and Paul I'm sorry for the situation and wish you the best. More about what I see in the pedal community as a whole.

I think competition is fine as long as nothing is a direct knock off of a current design. All pedals come from some previous incarnation of something else or could be linked even if it was never intentional. There are not a ton of ways to be super creative but more about features and ease of use these days.. As long as it brings something really new to the design and sounds different then it is an improvement, newer product and keeps the market competitive. This country is too patent happy which stifles creativity. What I object to is people profiting off R&D (per the above definition) making clone kits and opening the doors to information that someone worked hard to market and produce. It discourages makers from leaving their designs open and the customer winds up paying more to cover the costs of the manufacturer trying to protect his product.
 
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big mike

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
12,558
I have kept my yapper shut during this storm. I was aware of Paul's family situation because of his earlier posts. Might I suggest that folks pause for a while and give the pedal cloning argument a rest? There is plenty of time in the future for people to argue about who cloned what and the ethics behind it. Right now, it seems to me that Paul should be left alone to tend to his mother. In my world, taking care of one's family trumps everything else. It is obvious to me that now is not the time for this debate.
....
 

Improbable Joe

Double Platinum Member
Messages
2,201
Agreed completely...

I am on the waiting list for a Tim, and I still think they should be selling for $250+ (before the scalpers have time to get their mitts on 'em)
Right... which is why I'm on the list for a Tim and a Timmy, and if I decide to drop one I'll return it or sell it at cost here on TGP. I don't have any ethical right to profit from Paul's work simply because I have the money to buy both pedals and the patience to put my name on a waiting list.
 
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