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LZ Rock and Roll intro

flavaham

Member
Messages
1,866
I've been asked to play some Zeppelin with a band for a tribute thing. Pretty fun gig really (I friggin love me some Zeppelin!!)...But honestly, I've never until now tried to actually count this intro and in doing so I've been turned around a bit. Can someone help me hear the pulse during the drum intro? Where is that first hit in the measure? I've always heard it as the 1 but it clearly is not! :huh

It's funny how you never notice this kind of stuff until you try to play it!

(I've got the rest of the song down btw...haha)

On a side note, Page is a pain in the arse! Tons of strange tunings!! Kashmir, When the Levee Breaks, Rain Song, In My Time of Dying...heck, even Dancing Days is in open G!! What the hell man!!

 

JonR

Member
Messages
15,678
Code:
                          |1              |2              |3              |4              |           
          (1 . 2 . 3)& 4 &|1 . 2 . 3 & 4 .|1 . 2 . 3 . 4 .|1 . 2 . 3 & 4 &|1 & 2 . 3 . 4 .|
SNARE ACCENTS        X    |X         X    |X         X    |X         X   X|  X   x x x x x|
IOW, there's a consistent pattern, starting on the "3-and" of the pick-up bar, and then the "1" and "3-and" of the next few bars - except for the trick syncopation into the 4th bar.
(The guy in Whamosi's video explains it very well, IMO, because it helps to know the rock'n'roll ancestry of it, which ought to be very familiar.)

You better hope the drummer's got it the same way you have... ;) (Get him to count it in to make sure.)
 

Butterfly

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,629
That guy in the video is a nut! Very cool, and funny--I could waste a lot of time watching his videos!

Good luck Flav!
 

stevel

Member
Messages
15,203
Page is a pain in the arse! Tons of strange tunings!! Kashmir, When the Levee Breaks, Rain Song, In My Time of Dying...heck, even Dancing Days is in open G!! What the hell man!!
I too was recently engaged to play in a band that did a lot of Zeppelin.

I knew that Page was a genius but I had really forgotten how much of one until I started re-learning and learning a lot of these songs. He was a crafty devil.

Growing up, I had learned the "easy" Page stuff - the riffs - Heartbreaker, Live in Love in Maid, of course Stairway, etc.

But like a lot of bands that have 2 guitar players (Stones, Aerosmith, etc.) where playing a single part doesn't sound right, I found there to be so many overdubs in Page's parts that it was always difficult to pull off as a single guitarist. I always new he was a genius at the overdubbing and studio effects, but they were beyond the reach of a single player without the gear, so I just never bothered learning either or any of the parts.

But as I was learning these songs, it became clear that the Rhythm was another issue. In fact I somewhat recently posted something about that middle section in Stairway - it's not as easy at it seems to be.

The one that gave me a fit is Over the Hills and Far Away. First, the timing of the intro - you can get it by ear, but the beat is messed up. Oh, you can sit and count along with it, but trying to count it and play it - it's not natural - it's like the drums here (or that Stairway part, or Black Dog, or the drum intro to D'yer Mak'er...). The guitar solo section is an odd number of bars and begins that F#7 harmonized ascent in a weird place. I have no clue to this day if it works out in 4/4 or not - all I know is where I come out of it after I play the right amount of notes!

So a LOT of the songs at first seem like they might be a little tricky, and it turns out they often have some nearly impossible things going on (even in single guitar parts).

Solo playing - yes, sloppy. Always thought he was a very sloppy lead player which was a shame becuase everything else was so great (well, there's slop in other places too). But I attribute a lot of this to the "live" nature of the recordings and "just going for it" and stuff like that. There are a lot of "plinks" in that outro section of Over the Hills and Far Away but they don't come across as mistakes because of all that's going on.

Page is one of those few guys who, it's easier to get the solos down (and possibly improve on them!) once you get his general style down - and, it's easier to emulate as well, but whose rhythm playing you just can't fake (for more than a few bars anyway).

I've never heard a single or even worse (where it should be easier) dual guitar band play something a seemingly simple as D'yer Mak'er and get the rhythm parts sounding right. I think they all think it's easier than it is and just go for a "generalization" of it and it doesn't sound right. Oh, they get the solo note for note perfect. But they rhythm...

EVH is one of the only other people I can think of off the top of my head who's like that - while EVH's solos are much more technically difficult, once you get the general idea of what he's doing there's a lot of repetition. But the rhythm parts? Constantly inventive, "abnormal" and under-appreciated.

So this gig has given me a HUGE appreciation for the "less obvious" traits of Page's playing - I always knew they were something special, but now I'm at the point where I think he may have no equal in that area.

Steve
 

stevel

Member
Messages
15,203
Code:
                          |1              |2              |3              |4              |           
          (1 . 2 . 3)& 4 &|1 . 2 . 3 & 4 .|1 . 2 . 3 . 4 .|1 . 2 . 3 & 4 &|1 & 2 . 3 . 4 .|
SNARE ACCENTS        X    |X         X    |X         X    |X         X   X|  X   x x x x x|
IOW, there's a consistent pattern, starting on the "3-and" of the pick-up bar, and then the "1" and "3-and" of the next few bars - except for the trick syncopation into the 4th bar.
The other part we may not realize too though is the riff itself still doesn't start on 1!

So even after you figure out where the darn beat is in the drum intro, you still have to "wait an extra 8th note" to come in!!!!

Steve
 

stevel

Member
Messages
15,203
Speaking of the drummer - I wonder how many of them by nature count it correctly?

The drummer I'm playing with told me the chuck berry origin and I remember I had read it previously...maybe here in an older thread.

He also told me a story about how his drum teacher years ago clued him in to both this and that Stairway part.

He was trying to tell me and the other guitarist in the band how to count the SW part but we just can't "unhear" years of what we thought was 1 and odd beat measures (in fact I just pulled out an old guitar tab transcription that used multiple time signatures for this section!).

So even though I now KNOW how these parts are counted, I still can't COUNT them properly on the fly without some warning of when it's going to start!!!

Steve
 

amstrtatnut

Member
Messages
13,407
Ive been covering this tune for years. It seems drummers all play it differently and we all tend to start at the right place be feel.

Ive never been able to figure out how to count the drum intro. Will try again with tutorial above but if my drummer plays it differently Im going with my drummer.

For the poster above who said the riff doesnt start on one??????

There is a pickup A chord on the and of four. That doesnt sound like what you meant.
 

stevel

Member
Messages
15,203
There is a pickup A chord on the and of four. That doesnt sound like what you meant.
Not on the first one.

The first instrument sound besides drums is on the and of 1. From there on out, yes, there's a pickup on the and of 4 that's held across the barline into the next measure. So in essence, the first time through the main riff actually starts on the 2nd note of the pattern.

Here again, something I just noticed: I always knew there was the main riff part, and the overdub doing the tritones above, but just now, I noticed for the first time ever (maybe my crappy laptop speakers are more revealing than I thought!) there's another guitar in the background either echoing the main riff or playing chuck berry A5/A6 (A7) patterns in the back ground.

Dammit Jimmy.

Steve
 

JonR

Member
Messages
15,678
For the poster above who said the riff doesnt start on one??????

There is a pickup A chord on the and of four. That doesnt sound like what you meant.
I don't hear any A chord before "1", and the lead riff starts on 1-and, which is what I guess steve means:
Code:
|------------------------|------------------------|
|------------------------|------------------------|
|------------------------|------------------------|
|----2-----2--5--2--4--2-|---2--4--2--2--2--4--2--|
|(0)-0--4--0--0-----0--3/|4--0--0--0--0--0--0--0--|
|------------------------|------------------------|
  1  .  2  .  3  .  4  .  1  .  2  .  3  .  4  .
The bass hits A right on 1, and the guitar might too, but I don't really hear it until 1-and. (Mind you I'm working from that youtube audio....:()
The tab is taken from an online tab, btw, but sounds right. I agree with steve it could easily be two guitars.
 

amstrtatnut

Member
Messages
13,407
I have to aploguze kind of...I learned the version from the Song Remains the Same and assumed they wrre the same in the intro.

At any rate thats the solo I learned for this tune. I like that version better but admitteley I did not listen to original for intro.

Now if you come back and tell me the live version doesnt have a pickup on the A chord on the and of four.....

Well then...hmff.
 

amstrtatnut

Member
Messages
13,407
I have to aplogize kind of...I learned the version from the Song Remains the Same and assumed they wrre the same in the intro.

At any rate thats the solo I learned for this tune. I like that version better but admitteley I did not listen to original for intro.

Now if you come back and tell me the live version doesnt have a pickup on the A chord on the and of four.....

Well then...hmff.
 

JonR

Member
Messages
15,678
The one that gave me a fit is Over the Hills and Far Away. First, the timing of the intro - you can get it by ear, but the beat is messed up. Oh, you can sit and count along with it, but trying to count it and play it - it's not natural -
...
The guitar solo section is an odd number of bars and begins that F#7 harmonized ascent in a weird place. I have no clue to this day if it works out in 4/4 or not
I does. I just checked ;).
The "weird place" it starts on is beat 4 of the last bar of the previous section. Not that weird on the face of it, but - thanks to a 16th before the next beat 1 - it definitely throws you.
It's extremely clever - which you don't need me to tell you :) - because it's a 3-beat riff where the bass plays a 1-3-5-7 arpeggio, each note 3 16ths long - 4x3, IOW. Page's riff (as I'm sure you know ;)) plays all three 16ths on the first note, then joins JPJ on his long notes - octave above with the 3rd above that.
The whole thing is played 3 times, ascending as it goes.
So, in 16ths, you have 4x3 x 3 = 36 = 2 bars of 4/4, plus that extra beat stolen from the previous bar.
Code:
BASS
4 . . .|1 . . . 2 . . . 3 . . . 4 . . .|1 . . . 2 . . . 3 . . . 4 . . .|1
F#    A#    C#    E     F#    A#    C# |  E     F#    A#    C#    E    |F#!
|_____|_____|_____|     |_____|_____|_____|     |_____|_____|_____|     |
It's Bonham who keeps the 4/4 pulse on track, snare solidly on 2 and 4.
- all I know is where I come out of it after I play the right amount of notes!
Probably the safest way to do it.:) (Hope I haven't confused you by showing how it fits...:D)
Page is one of those few guys who, it's easier to get the solos down (and possibly improve on them!) once you get his general style down - and, it's easier to emulate as well, but whose rhythm playing you just can't fake (for more than a few bars anyway).
I sometimes get the feeling that it was all a plot between Page and Bonham (and maybe Jones) to throw Plant off. Black Dog certainly sounds like that.
Much as Baker and Bruce supposedly played tricks on jazz innocent Clapton in Cream.;)
 

Zexcoil

Vendor
Messages
5,916
It's a Chuck Berry riff played on the drums. Just think of it that way and you'll always get it. That's the way Bonzo was hearing it.
 

kyboch

Member
Messages
262
You count it in like you would count in Johnny B. Good. Like 1-2-3, the lick starts on the and of 3.

The first 3 beats are "and 4 and" then it starts on the 1.

I've actually NEVER met a drummer in my life that plays this right. They ALWAYS start it on the 1 and play it too short!
Good luck with it bud
_________________________________
Shutup & Play - Rock Guitar Tutorials
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAwuvzhah0KUw5QNihSkEwQ
 

flavaham

Member
Messages
1,866
I too was recently engaged to play in a band that did a lot of Zeppelin.

I knew that Page was a genius but I had really forgotten how much of one until I started re-learning and learning a lot of these songs. He was a crafty devil.

Growing up, I had learned the "easy" Page stuff - the riffs - Heartbreaker, Live in Love in Maid, of course Stairway, etc.

But like a lot of bands that have 2 guitar players (Stones, Aerosmith, etc.) where playing a single part doesn't sound right, I found there to be so many overdubs in Page's parts that it was always difficult to pull off as a single guitarist. I always new he was a genius at the overdubbing and studio effects, but they were beyond the reach of a single player without the gear, so I just never bothered learning either or any of the parts.

But as I was learning these songs, it became clear that the Rhythm was another issue. In fact I somewhat recently posted something about that middle section in Stairway - it's not as easy at it seems to be.

The one that gave me a fit is Over the Hills and Far Away. First, the timing of the intro - you can get it by ear, but the beat is messed up. Oh, you can sit and count along with it, but trying to count it and play it - it's not natural - it's like the drums here (or that Stairway part, or Black Dog, or the drum intro to D'yer Mak'er...). The guitar solo section is an odd number of bars and begins that F#7 harmonized ascent in a weird place. I have no clue to this day if it works out in 4/4 or not - all I know is where I come out of it after I play the right amount of notes!

So a LOT of the songs at first seem like they might be a little tricky, and it turns out they often have some nearly impossible things going on (even in single guitar parts).

Solo playing - yes, sloppy. Always thought he was a very sloppy lead player which was a shame becuase everything else was so great (well, there's slop in other places too). But I attribute a lot of this to the "live" nature of the recordings and "just going for it" and stuff like that. There are a lot of "plinks" in that outro section of Over the Hills and Far Away but they don't come across as mistakes because of all that's going on.

Page is one of those few guys who, it's easier to get the solos down (and possibly improve on them!) once you get his general style down - and, it's easier to emulate as well, but whose rhythm playing you just can't fake (for more than a few bars anyway).

I've never heard a single or even worse (where it should be easier) dual guitar band play something a seemingly simple as D'yer Mak'er and get the rhythm parts sounding right. I think they all think it's easier than it is and just go for a "generalization" of it and it doesn't sound right. Oh, they get the solo note for note perfect. But they rhythm...

EVH is one of the only other people I can think of off the top of my head who's like that - while EVH's solos are much more technically difficult, once you get the general idea of what he's doing there's a lot of repetition. But the rhythm parts? Constantly inventive, "abnormal" and under-appreciated.

So this gig has given me a HUGE appreciation for the "less obvious" traits of Page's playing - I always knew they were something special, but now I'm at the point where I think he may have no equal in that area.

Steve
I too was in the "Page is sloppy" clubhouse for a while. Then I started to learn this stuff. I don't think he was as sloppy as people might say to be honest. I think it's more about his approach. He had such an attitude about his playing. That said, there are parts of the Heartbreaker solo that could've definitely been a little smoother. But then, I don't think that's what he was going for.

I think his rhythm playing spilled over into his solos. He seemed to strum single note lines sometimes. But really, at the end of the day, most of what I have learned from his solos - not a lot of it seems like wrong notes or misplaced lines. I think it's part of his phrasing, whether he intended it or not.

As for the studio work and overdubs, that's a lot of what makes this stuff so difficult to play live. Ramble On and Over the Hills in particular can be tough and it really depends on what you're going for - studio or live. I've learned both in different ways. I like to hear their live versions and go from there.

For the live stuff, Page played both tunes on his electric using the patented "Page pickup switch technique" where you set the neck pickup to a VERY low volume (around 2-3) and the bridge around 8-10 (I go for 8 so I have a touch of wiggle room). Play the intro and verse stuff on the neck pup and the heavier stuff and solos on the bridge pup. A little of both here and there but I'm pretty sure he was usually on one or the other exclusively when he did it.

I would definitely put myself in the "Page was a genius" clubhouse!! Learning this stuff has been an absolute treat! In particular, The Song Remains the Same and The Rain Song have absolutely blown my mind. I learned The Rain Song a little while ago and I remember a session where I think I played a constant loop of it for close to two hours. I just couldn't let it end!!

TSRTS was another one that was tough to count. I could never quite nail that one down either until I really sat and listened closely. Turns out the hits at the beginning are on 4. Now I hear it every time!

 

flavaham

Member
Messages
1,866
Loved the first video that was posted btw! That guy's great! haha.

And now I can count this intro! So, thanks guys! Mission accomplished!
 




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