marshall 18w clone - enough for a loud 2 guitar band?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by mondo_mike, Mar 2, 2006.


  1. mondo_mike

    mondo_mike Member

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    looking for some input - I have a clone of a marshall 18w circuit.
    it is in a combo with 2 Jensen P10-R speakers.
    fantastic tone.
    but it does not cut through enough when I play in a band with another guitar player (he plays a JCM 900 through a 4-12) and bass, drums.

    is it hopeless? i am considering putting the amp output through a 4x12 - but is that likely to be enough difference in overall volume/output?
    or should i just move to a different amp?

    as a point of reference, my marshall jtm60 combo w/1-12" Vintage 30 cuts through just fine (but i am not as fond of the tone).

    thanks,
    mike
     
  2. Rusty G.

    Rusty G. Member

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    Of course you could mic your amp and that would work, but it won't give you the feeling of volume in your stage presence. You could try two of them in stereo for more volume. Either that or get a 36 watt example of the 18 watter. There are lots of builders who are making 4-EL84 versions of the 2-EL84 Marshall combo...
     
  3. raz

    raz Member

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    Yeah, because the other guitarist is too loud and obviously won't get a clue! :D

    I'm kidding. Okay, not completely kidding. But jayzeus you guys must be playing loud.

    I've got a GDS 18-Watt running through a couple of Celestion Blues and it has no trouble competing with my backup guitarist's 72 JMP 100-Watt half stack unless he turns up to wrecking ball levels.

    I can't even imagine what volumes you cats that say an 18-Watt is insufficient are playing at. I don't even WISH I could play at those levels. The 18-Watt can put serious, serious hurt on my ears.

    Now, if you need loud CLEAN, then I understand the problem. The 18-Watt doesn't have that headroom.
     
  4. Gordon

    Gordon Silver Supporting Member

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    Time for a new amp. Here'e why. With the 18w you have to really crank it up to even compete on volume. At that vol level the amp will be too mushy (it it's anything like my 18w clone) to really have a decent fit in the mix. You might notice that when you solo the high notes sound reasonably acceptable but the low notes will lack definition and cut-thru. Just my observations with a similar set of circumstances.
     
  5. The Whiz

    The Whiz Member

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    If I'm not mistaken, p10r's are really inefficient. If you ran that head through a pair of celestion blues in a 2x12 (not cheap haha) I bet you'd be loud enough.

    taco
     
  6. mondo_mike

    mondo_mike Member

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    good point -the P10rs rated as [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]95.0 dB sensitivity[/FONT]


    whereas the blues are 5dB higher at 100...relatively expensive to try, though :eek:
     
  7. raz

    raz Member

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    Yeah, but when you go there, you'll never go back. Ask me how I know. :jo
     
  8. blrogers

    blrogers Member

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    you could also try some of the emi 10's that have a higher rating and see if it helps. 100 in stead of 500.

    B
     
  9. Bloozcat

    Bloozcat Member

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    A couple of Celestion G12H30's would also do the trick. 100db efficiency and lower cost than the Blues. Or you could save yourself a few bucks and get a pair of Hellatone 30's from Avatar at $79.00 each (broken in G12h30's). They pair nicely with 18 watters and EL84's.
     
  10. Tone_Terrific

    Tone_Terrific Member

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    Just try your buddy's 4/12.
    Loud enough? Get one like that.
    Not loud enough? Get one with more efficient speakers (if possible).
    OR try other amps, before you buy, to see what fits.
    I can totally see (hear?) running an 18W amp to mush in a rock context.
     
  11. mondo_mike

    mondo_mike Member

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    thanks for the suggestions - the high efficiency alternatives are good ideas.
    i'm going to try tonight with a 4x12 and see how it goes
     
  12. mondo_mike

    mondo_mike Member

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    the 4x12 (with celestion G12T-75s) cut through just fine, as it turns out - one of the better nights for me, in general, actually.
    i am going to try a 2x12 with G12H30's next (would rather deal with a 2x12 than a 4x12 for ease of transport...)
    i had forgotten just how great that amp is when it cuts through...it even took to my delay in front of it with no problem.
     
  13. Mr.Hanky

    Mr.Hanky Supporting Member

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    I can tell you from expereicne that my Top Hat CR cuts through better when I use 1 speaker. Whenever I add an extension cab it may sound fuller, but does not cut through enough, so the 4X12 will fail I feel.

    I agree, get more horsepower.
    Masonette is a nice alternative.
     
  14. Chiba

    Chiba Gold Supporting Member

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    Try a pair of Eminence Ramrods in your combo, that'll up your volume a bit. Or a mixed pair, a Ramrod and a Copperhead - that's what I have in my 18W. I do fine on unmiked gigs with my band.

    --chiba
     
  15. asdf

    asdf Member

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    More efficient speakers, and 12s instead of 10s (basically what everybody else has said)
     
  16. Shea

    Shea Member

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    It doesn't come remotely close to loud enough for my band, at least not when played through two V30s or two G12H30s.

    I once tried one of my own 18-watt clones through a 2x12 loaded with Celestion V30s at a gig in a small bar. Couldn't hear myself.

    Our other guitar player recently got an 18-watt combo clone loaded with two G12H30s. It was loud enough for a couple rehearsals we did, where we deliberately played as quietly as possible so we could identify little mismatches in what we were playing and really tighten everything up. I played through a Super Champ for those rehearsals.

    But that other guitarist also tried using his 18-watt combo at our most recent gig. He and I were on opposite sides of the stage. I was playing a 30-40 watt combo running four 6V6s, so maybe it's roughly 3 db louder than his amp. During the gig, I could hear that he was playing, but I couldn't make out what he was playing except when he did an intro to a song by himself. And after it was over, he said he couldn't hear himself. Then we wondered how so many people on the Gear Page could claim that an 18-20 watt amp is more than loud enough for playing small clubs.

    Honestly, I can't imagine how a band could be quiet enough for that amp to be heard on stage. The problem isn't the other guitar (i.e., me), it's the drums. Drums can only be played so quietly and still sound like rock drums. I've seen cover bands with drummers who play very lightly, but those bands always sounded wimpy and had no punch to 'em.

    So, if you have a band that plays rock music, with a drummer who sounds like a rock drummer, I don't think it'll cut it for live. If you're in one of those bands that plays Mustang Sally and Brown Eyed Girl for a middle-aged bar crowd, it'll probably be plenty.

    Shea
     
  17. Goldstrat

    Goldstrat Supporting Member

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    If you want volume get 2x12" Eminence Wizards. They are 103 db at 1watt 1 meter. They will absolutely be twice as loud. But if I were you I would just get 2 Scumback h75's then it will be louder than what you have and also sound great. That's what I did.
     
  18. jkr

    jkr Supporting Member

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    So, if you have a band that plays rock music, with a drummer who sounds like a rock drummer, I don't think it'll cut it for live. If you're in one of those bands that plays Mustang Sally and Brown Eyed Girl for a middle-aged bar crowd, it'll probably be plenty.

    Shea[/quote]

    Uhgg... I've heard those two songs played in local bar bands so many times that I want to puke when I hear them now.
     
  19. dougb415

    dougb415 Supporting Member

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    How loud is your drummer? Has he tried using Hot Rods?

    Are your amps on the floor facing your ankles, or are they elevated and angled towards you?

    Are your amps miked and in the monitors, so that you can hear the guitarist on the other side of the stage?

    How dynamic is your band?

    I used a 50-watt Marshall half-stack for a gig a couple years ago. The *loudest* I had it set on was 3. This was with 2 other guitarists, bass & drums.
     
  20. bl77a

    bl77a Member

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    I found that I had a similar problem when using an 18 watt amp. I was playing in a loud stoner rock trio (drums, bass, guitar, no vocals) and couldn't be heard with my 18 watt clone. The drums just drowned me out. And that was through 2 vintage 30's and 2 Eminence V12's (vintage 30 knock-offs). The drummer does not use Hot Rods - they just aren't the same sound. And my amp was elevated to ear level.

    In my experience, it has taken 30 watts to get to the volumes I need. And this is for a cranked tone, nothing clean. However, this is for rehearsals. When gigging, PA's and monitors work fine for all sorts of amps, and I've been told to turn down my 36 watt Mesa by agitated sound men. Rehearsals are the real problem, I think. But it depends on the band, the music, the practice space, and so many other things that you really have to try it for yourself to know for sure. I'm just always surprised when I read everyone saying that 18 watts should always be enough for any band. Such a general statement is just not possible.

    Brian
     

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