Master up/channel down or channel up/master down?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by Random Hero, Mar 13, 2008.

  1. Random Hero

    Random Hero Member

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    I am of course talking about MV amps. Specifically my Bogner.

    I get pretty anal about things like this and cannot currently decide which I prefer - master up/channel down or visa versa.

    Oh the quandry... which do you guys prefer and why?
     
  2. bonchie123

    bonchie123 Supporting Member

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    It makes no difference sound wise in my experience with MV amps. You'll get the same tone either way. Its just two different ways of doing the same thing.
     
  3. Senor Forum

    Senor Forum Gold Supporting Member

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    Uh, seriously? :confused:

    I was under the impression, at least on some MV amps, that running the Master full on and adjusting the volume would essentially be using a NMV approach? Or is that only on some?

    :confused::confused::confused:
     
  4. bonchie123

    bonchie123 Supporting Member

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    The two volume controls do the same thing. No matter what combination of MV or channel volume you use, the end volume level will still push the powertubes the same amount.

    On my Jubilee I can turn the lead channel master up all the way and work the MV, or vise versa and theres no difference in tone at all. Same thing for the Stiletto Ace and JCM800 I had.
     
  5. Random Hero

    Random Hero Member

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    I was under the impression the channel volumes affected the preamp and the master the power amp...
     
  6. Senor Forum

    Senor Forum Gold Supporting Member

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    Same here.

    As a matter of fact, if you go to http://www.petersamplification.com it even states that you can run the clean channel as a NMV by doing as I described above.

    Is this limited only to his amp design?

    :confused:
     
  7. wyatt

    wyatt Member

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    Not quite. While low volume means low volume, meaning the power tubes are not cooking, there is a large difference in preamp saturation between to the too appraochs at low volume and a huge difference at louder volumes, where the power tubes can be pushed. At higher volumes, channel up/master down means more preamp OD, less poweramp. Channel down, master up means less saturated preamp, more power amp crunch.

    The first Volume (Gain, Pre-Volume, Volume -- depending on amp manufacturer) comes after the first gain stage, same place as the Volume on a NMV amp. It controls how much signal from that first stage will be allowed to cascade downhill through all the rest of the gain stages, the PI and the power tubes.

    The Master Volume (Post-Volume, Volume, Master Volume, etc.)usually comes right before the PI (except, of course, post-PI MV's). it is there to choke off the signal before it goes to the power amp. So it will allow the preamp to saturate , but keep the PI and power tubes from being overdriving.

    There is no right or wrong, on most hi-gain amps the power amps are designed to run loud and clean, so the OD doesn't get muddy. On the other hand, you can't get that old Marshall Plexi sound without getting the Pi and power tubes working.

    I'm a NMV guy, but on my one amp with a MV, it's usually turned up to 8 or higher.
    In general,
     
  8. justonwo

    justonwo Member

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    There's a big difference in tone on my amps between the two configuration. One control drives the preamp tubes. The other drives the power amp tubes.

    With an an attenuator, you can actually get both working and tune to your liking.
     
  9. eyeball987

    eyeball987 Member

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    I ran a Mig 60 with the master almost dimed and used an OD box for gain. Best tone I have ever had FWIW. Much more full, warm, and smooth compared to doing it the other way around.
     
  10. bbarnard

    bbarnard Member

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    I'm virtually certain that is the way both Allen and Gries amps work (both of which I own/have owned). And I believe my Super Champ is that way also.
     
  11. soldano16

    soldano16 Member

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    Not in my world but I play my only MV amp very clean. Someone the other day was talking about the difference between 5 and 10 on the preamp.

    Well I run my Soldano pre on 2 which is totally different that having it on 5 or even 3. And the master is on 11. There is no way to get that tone any other way. And volume does increase with preamp changes when the preamp is very low.
     
  12. BIGGERSTAFF

    BIGGERSTAFF Member

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    I have a Carr El Moto that has gain, master(for the dirty channel), and volume on the clean channel. It also has a global master. I run the global master dimed or nearly dimed, the gain at about 1 o'clock, and the master at 10-12.
     
  13. Last Nerve

    Last Nerve Supporting Member

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    I will agree as well that adjusting VOL and MV in various settings will get you different tones. I am directly speaking of my experiences with the Bogner Shiva I owned for years.
     
  14. rob2001

    rob2001 Member

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    I dial the pre gain to the amount of distortion I want, then turn up to as loud as it needs to be. The louder, the better with my JCM 800. Overall, there is a huge pallet of tones available with just those two knobs.
     
  15. freaksho

    freaksho Member

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    i think some are not getting what he means.

    on the Shiva there are controls for Gain, Channel Volume and also overall Master Volume. if i understand the question he's asking the difference between Channel Volume up & Master Volume down and vice versa (at the same Gain setting).

    i have a Shiva and i have to say i can't hear a difference. like bonchie123 said, they both act as master volumes and therefore both effect the signal after the preamp and before the power amp. so it doesn't matter.
     
  16. rob2001

    rob2001 Member

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    Yes, could be a mis-understanding then. I'm not sure how the Shiva is laid out.
     
  17. drbob1

    drbob1 Silver Supporting Member

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    There is two small differences. My understanding of the topology would be that the channel master volume comes before the tube or op amp that mixes the channels and the overall master comes after.
    1. With the master dimed, there's a bit more clean overhead for the clean channel. By the time you've dimed the clean channels "channel master" in most amps (no experience with Bogner) you're starting to overload and distort the mixer tube.
    2. Since there is some kind of a mixing device before the master volume, if you turn everything on the lead channel up all the way, including the channel master, you should get the most saturation you can at any given volume. This would especially be true if you tried different tubes in the mixer position-one with lower gain would improve clean overhead but slightly lose saturation.
     
  18. SQUAREHEAD

    SQUAREHEAD Supporting Member

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    I have owned 9 Bogners and currently own two Xtcy Classics and a 100B from early 90's.
    Run a Bogner with the MV wide open.
    Then run the channel volumes as needed...

    This is the way to get the BEST tone from a Bogner. period.

    Keith
     
  19. The Captain

    The Captain Supporting Member

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    I'm swimming the other way here.
    I run channel volumes high and MV low on my Triamp and Recto. This gives awesome overdriven sounds, but lets me turn the volume down to really very low levels before the tone dwindles and dynamics fade. At normla family television volumes, there is still plenty of tone and lots of dynamics available.
    On the Bad CAt HC 30, I use less channel volume and more MV, but it is a very different design, much lower power rating at 30 watts, and I can really crank the MV without passing out. If I tried that on the 100 watters, it would be verging on dangerous.
     
  20. SQUAREHEAD

    SQUAREHEAD Supporting Member

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    Yep...
    Every amp is different. The Bogners sound like muffled and blunt when the master is real low. They run WAY WAY better with the master opend up FULL and the individual Ch volumes as needed.
    Kw
     

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