Melodic Triads - Jordan Klemons

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by Dickie Fredericks, Sep 7, 2019.

  1. Mike

    Mike Member

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    So you're hearing Bsus4b9 with that CMaj7 shell, no problemo. Dark sound, which is Jordan's point in a way - how a Maj7 voicing can be made to sound dark, or I should say, how one can reveal the darkness in a Maj7. Try this one - play a minor triad from the 3rd of C (Emin). Now you have a CMaj7 chord made to sound like an Emin chord. The 5 and 1 of Emin are the Maj7 and 3 of CMaj7. Turns out that Maj7 note reveals a dark quality as in the two examples above.

    If you play a GMaj triad over CMaj7 you'll notice that the Maj7 tone is gone, replaced by a 9 = CMaj9. Bright, cheery. Same with C6, bright, cheery. CMaj7? Dark. It's interesting to note that you heard that B as the dominating tone - shows that your ear was hearing "dark". Exactly!
     
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  2. Mike

    Mike Member

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    Well, he DOES do that, but that's three iterations up the food chain from where he starts. As I said before, I extend every voicing I'm working on to include triad pairs. BTW, I don't call them hexatonic because for me this implies that all six notes are equal, and they are not. Three of them reign supreme, and three others are available tensions. He continually emphasizes this aspect.
     
  3. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    So funnily enough in the end it all comes out in the wash.
    But yes I quite enjoy his approach.
     
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  4. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    Yeah I call them 2 triads...lol
    Now we are getting somewhere...
     
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  5. Dickie Fredericks

    Dickie Fredericks Supporting Member

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    Indeed.

    CMaj7 shell

    Yup

    LOL right?

    Me too. I think he wants you to think of that B as "do" as in do, re, mi...

    Well that was one of my first posts in the thread here I think. I want it to all end up being a scale and it is but it's a different way to look at this stuff which is what Ive been trying to find in a teacher for... well ... for a long time.

    Probably does and more experienced players (such as yourself) have probably learned from folks who made you see these things differently. As I mentioned in many threads here, I always end up back at a major scale. I hate that about my playing as I have the technical facilities to do much more but my learning of all things theory run me right back to playing a major scale over everything.

    This is why it is resonating with me. This months lesson is and Ab triad over a C7 shell. Never, ever would I have ever played an Ab note over a C7. Thats F man all day LOL

    So my quadratonic is Ab - C - Eb and E. I used to think 2 of those notes wouldnt work.
     
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  6. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    #5 all day long!
    And more importantly its right there as the V chord in F melodic minor and what's the III?Ab
    But C Eb e ab... R #9 3 #5
     
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  7. Dickie Fredericks

    Dickie Fredericks Supporting Member

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    I'm terrible w melodic and harmonic minor. Working on those too.
     
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  8. Lester Alvarez

    Lester Alvarez Member

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    First post from a long time lurker. A question for Mike from Santa Cruz. I'm a little familiar with JK's melodic triads, but remain "too fuzzy" on hard details. Is there and systemic overview for what triads are applied to a given chord quality or am I understanding correctly that the triads one would used are derived from strong tones from the melody of the moment? I'm pretty well versed in Garrison Fewell's books and understand his approach to using diatonic and nondiatonic b5, #5, b9, #9 triads over Dom7 chords. Could you kindly explain the main difference in how JK would apply his system?
     
  9. Mike

    Mike Member

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    Hi, I have a Garrison Fewell book but I forget what was in it, so unless I went back to dig it up, I wouldn't have a basis for comparison there. That said, I'm sure that the Fewell book that I have does not approach things as Jordan has set forth. "derived from strong tones from the melody of the moment".. yes indeed that's what he does. After a while one sees the same triads showing up in a lot of common harmonic situations and so then a harmonic vocabulary can be built from that. And Jordan explores one such tonality each month - which must be up to 15 tonalities by now - so things add up quickly. But I can't emphasize this enough - it's the system he has for prioritizing which notes get what influence and how. It's the idea of bouncing from tension tones into main triad tones, so you get tension/release within the line you're playing regardless of what the underlying harmony is doing. I have never seen anything like it and I have so much material .. pretty much all of the stuff that has been mentioned here is stuff I have, and it's not at all the same as where Jordan is coming from. Could folks make a case for what he's doing is just a melodic minor tonal order, or any of the other devices that have been brought up here and elsewhere? Sure, like geometry where you have to prove why something works - OK, but that completely overlooks what the process for hearing and executing this stuff might entail, and this is what's great about his approach - it's really, dare I say, "musical"?
     
  10. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    And before I forget that for a C7alt are great notes.
    When I say it comes out in the wash I mean to me it's a E∆7b5 arp over C.
     
  11. Lester Alvarez

    Lester Alvarez Member

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    Thank you Mike. I would like to dive down into this rabbit hole but I'm loath to join facebook and spend hours online watching videos every week. Is there a "synopsis" of the technique available that lays out the "rules and variables"? I know Jordan has a package available called "the overiew, 5 steps to melodic improv", but no real information on just what you're getting. Do you know if this the "whole plan"? I guess what I'm saying is I prefer to work on my own, I have no problem paying for what I want, I just really don't want to jump in the middle of hour long monthly FB sessions. I'd greatly prefer to have something where I can start at the beginning and work forward at my own speed.
    Thanks again for all the info you're sharing on this subject.
     
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  12. Mike

    Mike Member

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    My pleasure. I haven't surfed his website in a while but he used to have some introductory videos that explained the process. I check out the tonalities each month and if one really interests me I will work on it but sometimes I set them aside. I understand the process so I too spend a lot of time on my own exploring tonalities in songs that I like to play. I could spend at least a couple more years exploring this without ever having to see another video.
     
  13. Dickie Fredericks

    Dickie Fredericks Supporting Member

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    New tonality coming today!
     
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  14. Dickie Fredericks

    Dickie Fredericks Supporting Member

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    I know the question was for Mike but I thought I'd answer since I am now in the Rabbit Hole heh

    I signed up for the Premium membership. I have been working on this everyday for a few weeks now and I am still just amazed at what I'm learning but more than that it is what I am hearing.

    The synopsis is this (I hope I have it right) You basically start everything off with the shell triad of the chord at hand. You then create lines based off the triad and one or more of the tensions. You have 3 notes in the triad. That gives you I guess 9 different quadratonics to play over the chord.

    You're no longer thinking in scales to fit the chord because now you're thinking in tonal quality and degrees.

    No, the 5 steps isnt the all of it in a nutshell and yet almost every lesson is exactly the technique in a nutshell. Basic shell triad of the chord with your choice of what you play over it.

    I started with the Bootcamp #1. I am on lesson one and frankly, I'm quite a bit passed knowing where the triads are on the neck but I am using the exercises in the lessons as my warm ups and they are skills you dont always use.

    Today I sat with a CMaj shell voicing for at least an hour and played the triad. Then I added Tension 2 which is the D. The I played it with only Tension 4... Then with Tension 6 then with Tension 7... THEN...Tension b2 and Tension #4/b5 Tension b3.... Soon I was simply creating lines using any and all notes available and always seeming to resolve on the triad note or one that was more sympathetic to the shell.

    The lesson for today for me was that I was thinking about the tonal qualities and the musical degrees they represent over the chord yet not a scale at all. There was no need to. Instead of playing patterns that Ive played forever, I was creating new lines and not just for the sake of creating them. There is purpose in them no matter how simple.

    If you have some knowledge of music theory (harmonizing a scale, knowing triads) you can jump in anywhere. When you become a premium member you get an account called "Your Stuff" and all your stuff you've purchased is in there. The videos are generally short so you arent sitting for hours.

    You dont have to do the group thing but... there is one today at noon which was why I came back to the thread.

    I hope this helps. I am very much enjoying what Im learning but again, its what Im hearing that I like.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
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  15. Mike

    Mike Member

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    The shell triad of the chord is the left hand on piano. Jordan's MELODIC triads are for the "right hand" where the melodies are played, and 9 times out of 10 the melodic triad is NOT the shell triad of the chord. So for CMaj7 the MELODIC triad is Emin. The first tension note is 2 of Emin, or F#, and it builds from there. Another tension note is the b6 of Emin, which is C! Yes indeed, the root of the CMaj7 chord is a tension note.
     
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  16. Dickie Fredericks

    Dickie Fredericks Supporting Member

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    Yes, I made the mistake of not clarifying that my post was based on the most simplistic part of it. The "Intro to melodic triads" video and lesson. It simply has a cmaj triad and then you move between the triad and all of the different tensions. Ultimately you are playing all 12 notes of the chord and creating lines from all 12 notes. All over the same chord.

    Yes, the onion has many layers. The shell on the bottom (left) and triad on the top (right). I'm still trying to understand it all. It could go on a while. It is a completely different way to think about music to me and my ears.
     
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  17. derekd

    derekd Member

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    That's a helpful way to think about this Mike, as I try and conceptualize what you and Dickie are talking about. Thanks for that visualization.

    I hope to be done with grad school by the end of the year and plan on diving into lessons on improv when finished. Looking for a path that isn't scale-based. This one seems pretty attractive.
     
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  18. Mike

    Mike Member

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    Thanks I wish I had invented it but that's totally Jordans thing. Quite literally he will tell you to use the bottom three strings on the guitar to play elements of the shell voicing (L hand) and the top three strings of the guitar to play elements of the melodic triad and tension notes (R hand). He calls this the "fully extended harmony".
     
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  19. Dickie Fredericks

    Dickie Fredericks Supporting Member

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    I missed yesterday's class but caught half of today's class. Really good stuff running 2 hrs. That was just one of the classes. Totally worth the monthly fee.

    I can't wait to watch the rest of them.

    Lots of fun and great ear training.
     
  20. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    Was intrigued enough to do the monthly thing... Thanks Mike.
     
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