Modeler outside can never replace my 4x12 cab and 100w head

FiestaRed869

Member
Messages
2,792
maybe they were referring to what THEY heard onstage. We all know a modeler through a stage monitor doesn’t sound or feel like a 4x12. But who cares if the audience hears the PA.
 

cragginshred

Member
Messages
2,626
This has absolutely nothing to do with your fractal and everything to do with the environment and FOH, period. Your fractal is not just somehow crushing on a record and ****** live… do other bands have that issue that have been using modelers live FOR OVER A DECADE NOW? The answer is no. Taylor swifts band? Sounds good to me. Carrie underwood’s? Yep, they sound insane. Huge metal acts? Yep, sounds sick af live…these bands all have amazing engineers absolutely, but they also use a tool ( their digital product) in the right environment to fit the job.


Don’t use this as a pillar to stand on that digital can’t do what a tube amp can, because it’s just not true at this point: and that’s coming from someone with 8 tube heads, 7 4x12s, and no digital products… however, I did gig exclusively professionally with nothing but a Kemper and did for over 600 gigs.


The problem is the PA. Were there front fills? Did this guy actually know what he’s doing? There is absolutely NO DOUBT that for smaller club gigs and gigs that rely ON SOUND FROM THE STAGE, that yes, a tube amp, or a digital product with a power amp and a cab is a better choice; it’s just physics. I am blown away that there is not more emphasis and thought put into this after 15 years of quality digital products for live use. Buying a digital product like a Kemper or a fractal DOES take more thought and preparation and understanding of acoustics when playing a live venue, there is also no doubt about that. And I think this has comically been blown over as something you really need to consider.


The greatest live tone I ever had was my Kemper direct into a FOH system that comprised of an insane line array, in front of 25,000 people outside. It was ****ing glorious…… your problem is not the fractal, your problem is not choosing the right product for the environment in which you were performing.
This was a large open beer garden type area meant to hold 100 to 200 peeps with a Turbosound IP3000 pa and monitors in front side and rear monitor for the drummer
Important info I did Not include is the Fractal preset I planned to use was so crappy sounding outdoors I about flipped especially because I had only used Tube heads and 4x12 cabs at the gigs over the past couple of years.

I was able to find another pre set that worked fine for the night and sounded really good in my IEM's and on some of the vid I heard from out front. The point is I should have had my lap top with me to tweak the pre set that was Not designed outdoors -lesson learned.

Also not using a massive pa nor a line array is not going to aide in the modeler sound like what you described with that massive pa -not my scenario.
But making tweaks to the pre set on the spot was my missing link. There is a way to do it from the top of the FM9 but i am so used to editor on my laptop I did not even try.
 

VESmedic

Member
Messages
285
maybe they were referring to what THEY heard onstage. We all know a modeler through a stage monitor doesn’t sound or feel like a 4x12. But who cares if the audience hears the PA.


Who cares if the audience hears the PA? What does that mean? You mean who cares about why you got hired to play the gig in the first place? This is exactly the difference between professionals and amateurs: mindset. When you are a professional, you pick the right tools for the job, to make your BAND or vocalist sound as good as possible. That is YOUR job to do. If all you care about is your “in the room/on stage tone” and don’t care at all about how your BAND sounds, you are the last guy I would ever hire. This is exactly why professionals couldn’t give a **** about their stage tone or their room tone, unless of course that is all the crowd/audience is hearing and there is no FOH. But if what you mean is you don’t care what the audience hears, you are 100 percent completely backwards in mindset on how the industry works, I can assure you.

Of course, I’m sure you’ll say you aren’t a professional, and that is of course 100 percent A-ok and fine, no doubt about it. But remember, if you got hired and are getting paid to play, you are in a sense at that point, a professional, and being professional means acting and thinking like one, and not being selfish or close minded.
 

VESmedic

Member
Messages
285
This was a large open beer garden type area meant to hold 100 to 200 peeps with a Turbosound IP3000 pa and monitors in front side and rear/drummer
Important info I did Not include is the Fractal preset I planned to use was so crappy sounding I about flipped especially because I had only used Tube heads and 4x12 cabs at the gigs over the past couple of years.

I was able to find another pre set that worked fine for the night and sounded really good in my IEM's and on some of the vid I heard from out front. The point is I should have had my lap top with me to tweak the pre set that was Not designed outdoors -lesson learned.

Also not using a massive pa nor a line array is not going to aide in the modeler sound like what you described with that massive pa -not my scenario.
But making tweaks to the pre set on the spot was my missing link. There is a way to do it from the top of the FM9 but i am so used to editor on my laptop I did not even try.


I get what you are saying, trust me I really do, I have 100 percent been there many times as well! You just need to find a way to reference your tones before hand. Using the same IR for various tones is a huge step in the right direction. There is nothing that is going to throw an amateur FOH for a loop more than changing a patch from a vox ac30 to a recto with a 4x12. Again, not saying that’s what you are doing, but when aiming for consistency and knowing your tones are going to work regardless of the venue or FOH being used, using the same IR is a huge step in the right direction. Also there is no such thing as a sound “designed for outdoors”. What your realizing is a much broader concept. The concept that not every sound works in every place. However, I would also note that the majority of bands I know that have used modelers live as well as myself, don’t change their core tones from show to show, venue to venue, FOH to FOH. A good tone is a good tone period, and can be made to work. Could it be because they always have a great FOH so they don’t have to change sounds to make them work for each venue etc? Maybe, who knows. But I still contend that a good tone is a good tone. Maybe something is alittle bright or alittle dark inside or outside etc, but if they core tone is great, you are going to be happy.


Edit: I’m also still willing to bet, your PA and your FOH guy were a huge part of your problem. And even if it wasn’t, you will for sure 100 percent run into this scenario when gigging with modelers at one point or another.
 

FiestaRed869

Member
Messages
2,792
Who cares if the audience hears the PA? What does that mean? You mean who cares about why you got hired to play the gig in the first place? This is exactly the difference between professionals and amateurs: mindset. When you are a professional, you pick the right tools for the job, to make your BAND or vocalist sound as good as possible. That is YOUR job to do. If all you care about is your “in the room/on stage tone” and don’t care at all about how your BAND sounds, you are the last guy I would ever hire. This is exactly why professionals couldn’t give a **** about their stage tone or their room tone, unless of course that is all the crowd/audience is hearing and there is no FOH. But if what you mean is you don’t care what the audience hears, you are 100 percent completely backwards in mindset on how the industry works, I can assure you.

Of course, I’m sure you’ll say you aren’t a professional, and that is of course 100 percent A-ok and fine, no doubt about it. But remember, if you got hired and are getting paid to play, you are in a sense at that point, a professional, and being professional means acting and thinking like one, and not being selfish or close minded.
Hmm maybe I should have used better punctuation…. Who cares what the 4x12 sounds like to the band , if the audience can only hear the Pa And the 4x12 is messing with that then that’s a problem. I thin we’re on the same page?
 

cragginshred

Member
Messages
2,626
Hmm maybe I should have used better punctuation…. Who cares what the 4x12 sounds like to the band , if the audience can only hear the Pa And the 4x12 is messing with that then that’s a problem. I thin we’re on the same page?
Part of my perspective of going to FRFR's for the band to give them a better tone than routed to pa monitors as opposed to the 'uni directional' tone from my 4x12 which is massive in front of it, BUT that prevents putting as much in the house -so in theory the guitar has less dispersion throughout the venue??

Trying to process all this heading into a busy summer schedule where most shows are outside. I guess I could point the cab to the side a bit to put more in the house??
 

FiestaRed869

Member
Messages
2,792
Part of my perspective of going to FRFR's for the band to give them a better tone than routed to pa monitors as opposed to the 'uni directional' tone from my 4x12 which is massive in front of it, BUT that prevents putting as much in the house -so in theory the guitar has less dispersion throughout the venue??

Trying to process all this heading into a busy summer schedule where most shows are outside. I guess I could point the cab to the side a bit to put more in the house??
It’s a battle for sure. Psychologically and objectively what’s best. So many options that can have great results. One thing I do know, nothing beats a 100 watter cranked out of a 4x12
 

Anthony Gring

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
4,257
This has absolutely nothing to do with your fractal and everything to do with the environment and FOH, period. Your fractal is not just somehow crushing on a record and ****** live… do other bands have that issue that have been using modelers live FOR OVER A DECADE NOW? The answer is no. Taylor swifts band? Sounds good to me. Carrie underwood’s? Yep, they sound insane. Huge metal acts? Yep, sounds sick af live…these bands all have amazing engineers absolutely, but they also use a tool ( their digital product) in the right environment to fit the job.


Don’t use this as a pillar to stand on that digital can’t do what a tube amp can, because it’s just not true at this point: and that’s coming from someone with 8 tube heads, 7 4x12s, and no digital products… however, I did gig exclusively professionally with nothing but a Kemper and did for over 600 gigs.


The problem is the PA. Were there front fills? Did this guy actually know what he’s doing? There is absolutely NO DOUBT that for smaller club gigs and gigs that rely ON SOUND FROM THE STAGE, that yes, a tube amp, or a digital product with a power amp and a cab is a better choice; it’s just physics. I am blown away that there is not more emphasis and thought put into this after 15 years of quality digital products for live use. Buying a digital product like a Kemper or a fractal DOES take more thought and preparation and understanding of acoustics when playing a live venue, there is also no doubt about that. And I think this has comically been blown over as something you really need to consider.


The greatest live tone I ever had was my Kemper direct into a FOH system that comprised of an insane line array, in front of 25,000 people outside. It was ****ing glorious…… your problem is not the fractal, your problem is not choosing the right product for the environment in which you were performing.

I agree.
I used Kemper at a large church with a great PA and good sound techs.
Have also used at large outdoor festivals with large pro pads and,

It sounded, glorious !!
 

MrTAteMyBalls

Member
Messages
4,660
It’s a battle for sure. Psychologically and objectively what’s best. So many options that can have great results. One thing I do know, nothing beats a 100 watter cranked out of a 4x12


I remember my first gig with the 100 watt marshall JCM and 4x12 cab. I was really young and had little to no experience but I bought this rig with lawn mowing money as my first "real" amp.

First gig was at a gymnasium sized venue and the sound guy went to put a mic on it and asked me if I just wanted to crank it instead. Being 15 and dumb I said sure thing and pushed the master up to like 7. I will never forget hitting the first chord. I am sure we sounded like "guitar with some other noise" to whomever was in the line of sight of that amp.


For the OP: this is really just about volume. The 100 watt tube amp and 4x12 puts out a lot of very directional sound. The whole point of a modeller is to not make such a giant racket. It takes some getting used to....and as you see when you are outdoors the sound just goes past you and doesn't bounce back. So it feels small and weak. The monitor system has to make up the difference.
 

cragginshred

Member
Messages
2,626
I remember my first gig with the 100 watt marshall JCM and 4x12 cab. I was really young and had little to no experience but I bought this rig with lawn mowing money as my first "real" amp.

First gig was at a gymnasium sized venue and the sound guy went to put a mic on it and asked me if I just wanted to crank it instead. Being 15 and dumb I said sure thing and pushed the master up to like 7. I will never forget hitting the first chord. I am sure we sounded like "guitar with some other noise" to whomever was in the line of sight of that amp.


For the OP: this is really just about volume. The 100 watt tube amp and 4x12 puts out a lot of very directional sound. The whole point of a modeller is to not make such a giant racket. It takes some getting used to....and as you see when you are outdoors the sound just goes past you and doesn't bounce back. So it feels small and weak. The monitor system has to make up the difference.

Exactly, 4x12 sounds massive in front of it it but can end up have less in the house as a result.



Turbosound IP3000 might be the issue. The column-type PAs are all highs and lows with very little mid-range (where your modeler lives).
Actually the towers have varying size speaker cover all the frequencies perfectly. Tow of the guys in the band have been playing live for over 40 years and agree it's the best PA they have ever heard.

As stated above it was mote user error on my part trying a pre set in the fractal that had too much low end cut due to a dry room I rehearse in.
 

JCW308

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
10,082
Exactly, 4x12 sounds massive in front of it it but can end up have less in the house as a result.




Actually the towers have varying size speaker cover all the frequencies perfectly. Tow of the guys in the band have been playing live for over 40 years and agree it's the best PA they have ever heard.

As stated above it was mote user error on my part trying a pre set in the fractal that had too much low end cut due to a dry room I rehearse in.
Familiar with this TurboSound, we had issued with mids and modelers (that's why I mentioned it). Glad it all worked out!
 

cragginshred

Member
Messages
2,626
Familiar with this TurboSound, we had issued with mids and modelers (that's why I mentioned it). Glad it all worked out!
Here is it last summer with a Bogner 50w Helios head and 4x12
No complaints! I will be using my tube heads outside the rest of the summer. :beer

 

hvactech

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,374
This was a large open beer garden type area meant to hold 100 to 200 peeps with a Turbosound IP3000 pa and monitors in front side and rear monitor for the drummer
Important info I did Not include is the Fractal preset I planned to use was so crappy sounding outdoors I about flipped especially because I had only used Tube heads and 4x12 cabs at the gigs over the past couple of years.

I was able to find another pre set that worked fine for the night and sounded really good in my IEM's and on some of the vid I heard from out front. The point is I should have had my lap top with me to tweak the pre set that was Not designed outdoors -lesson learned.

Also not using a massive pa nor a line array is not going to aide in the modeler sound like what you described with that massive pa -not my scenario.
But making tweaks to the pre set on the spot was my missing link. There is a way to do it from the top of the FM9 but i am so used to editor on my laptop I did not even try.
Can you post your preset?
 

cragginshred

Member
Messages
2,626
Can you post your preset?



I can but the one that was the initial culprit has been discarded. I dialed in a new one over the weekend that i will use at the local casino this weekend, then it's all outdoors until the end of Aug.

What would you look at in the preset? I know the Fractal editor and some tricks pretty well but always open to new ideas!
 
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hvactech

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,374
I can but the one that was the initial culprit has been discarded. I dialed in a new one over the weekend that i will use at the local casino this weekend, then it's all outdoors until the end of Aug.

What would you look at in the preset? I know the Fractal editor and some tricks pretty well but always open to new ideas!
I would just see how it sounds through my monitors at home by absolutely cranking it. I wouldn’t be doing anything special besides using the regular b,m,t controls and high and low cuts and maybe a peq. Then I’d send it back and you could see what you thought.
 

Gasp100

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
25,994
As an 80's guy every tone I dial in has mids scroll thru my amp demos on my YT page and you'll hear that clearly.

Real amp tone live here


That's kind of my point. The real amps live backline adds much required mids naturally. This is hard to replicate live if you are PURE FRFR, meaning either silent stage / FOH only or maybe some stage wash with FRFR side fill or even if you use an FRFR speaker as backline. I've gigged modelers for quite a while and my take is if you are not getting at least 75% or more of the resultant sound from FOH ALONE, you suffer.
My personal sweet spot now is a moderately nice board in front of a good cleanish tube amp and a Friedman mic no mo to FOH. But, in most venues we rely about 30-50% backline.
I played a big venue on Friday with a big house system and still used an amp because
 




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