Modes from the major scale

[mildperv]

I like to use scale patterns related to the major scale. For example, I count the minor scale as 6,7,1, etc, vice 1,2b,3.

Has anybody seen a chart like this for modes? Ex, Dorian would start 3,4,5...

It'll save me some time from doing it myself.

Cheers

 

[Kappy]

I like to use scale patterns related to the major scale. For example, I count the minor scale as 6,7,1, etc, vice 1,2b,3.

Has anybody seen a chart like this for modes? Ex, Dorian would start 3,4,5...

Minor (aeolian) doesn't have a b2 in it, phrygian and locrian do. Further, dorian starts on the "2" in your nomenclature. Can you explain the advantage of seeing modes your way? I'm curious.

This image is generally how I think of them:

but that's not to say my way is the best/only way. I wouldn't say that at all.

 

[willemhdb]

Does this help? These are all on the white keys of the keyboard, starting at C, moving onto D (Dorian), etc. The intervals `T' means whole tone, `s' means semitone.

Mode | Tonic relative to major scale | White note | Interval sequence
Ionian I C T-T-s-T-T-T-s
Dorian II D T-s-T-T-T-s-T
Phrygian III E s-T-T-T-s-T-T
Lydian IV F T-T-T-s-T-T-s
Mixolydian V G T-T-s-T-T-s-T
Aeolian VI A T-s-T-T-s-T-T
Locrian VII B s-T-T-s-T-T-T

 

[JonR]

It'll save me some time from doing it myself.

Cheers

DO IT YOURSELF! It's easy, and you will learn a lot more than from someone telling you.

However, I ought to point ought that dorian would be 2,3,4... (I guess a little guidance doesn't go amiss )

btw, I agree dkaplowitz's "parallel" modes (same root note, different interval structure) are a better way to understand modes than the "relative" method (same 7 notes, different roots).

By all means begin from the relative method if you need to derive the modes to begin with, but get out of the habit of associating them with a "parent" major scale as soon as you can. (That's not how modes work in practice.)
Eg, if you want to understand D dorian, compare it with D minor and D major, not with C major.

 

[mildperv]

I just want to practice new scales off of the painfully learned major pattern.

After getting the major pattern down, it was just so much easier to start at 6 for the minor scale...

I understand it's musically better to consider the Mode as being in the key of the first note rather than a derivative of C.

I find it easier to apply patterns to the fretboard rarther than notes. The notes are coming, but not as easily as patterns at this time. At some point, in the not too distant future, it will all be second nature. Not right now. The brain cells ain't what they used to be.

Yes DK, sorry Dorian does start on the 2. Fingers going faster than the brain at this point.

 

[arthur rotfeld]

I totally get the benefit of thinking of the first note and using the fingerings/patterns you've already learned, but after that, I don't see the practicality. I think just committing the order of the modes is enough, as in Willem's post....

 

[mike walker]

See the modes as entities within themselves.

Right off the bat.

That way, they won't be desperately scrambling to be seen (and heard) as maj scales again.

 

[A-Bone]

See the modes as entities within themselves.

Right off the bat.

That way, they won't be desperately scrambling to be seen (and heard) as maj scales again.

What Mike and dakp and others are suggesting is absolutely a great idea, as it prevents that nagging tug toward resolving to the major scale. If you can fix the intervallic structure of the modes in your head, the modes will sound appropriate unto themselves, with no need to harken back to the diatonic major scale at all.

This is where my "self instruction" in modes did me wrong. It is very difficult for me to not try and push them back towards the major scale in effect eliminating any modal aspect at all.

 

[mildperv]

It just seems to that seeing the modes as a pattern - start at root X and follow X pattern (start at 6 and follow minor pentatonic pattern 5, for example). I don't see myself as locked into a major scale connection since I can clearly differentiate between a major and minor phrase - by sight and sound. I'm just not wanting to learn 10 patterns that start with 1 and try to keep them straight in my head.

 

[arthur rotfeld]

I'm just not wanting to learn 10 patterns that start with 1 and try to keep them straight in my head.

I'm not sure I'm understanding this.....

Do you mean thinking of each mode as a formula, modifying the major scale? I'd consider that essential.

 

[Member 995]

I'm definitely in the "modes are their own things" camp.

F Lydian, to my ear is definitely not just a C major scale started on F. Sure, the pitches are the same, but other than giving a shortcut for fingerings, it really doesn't get to the heart of the scale.

I tend to group the common modes into two groups: major and minor. Major modes get referenced to the major scale. Minor modes get referenced to the natural minor scale.

Ionian is the major scale. Mixolydian is the major scale with a b7. Lydian is the major scale with a #4.

Aeolian is the natural minor scale. Dorian is the natural minor scale with a raised 6. Phrygian is the natural minor scale with a flatted 2.

Locrian is sitting in the corner, minding its own business.

 

[gdane4]

Agree w/ A-Bone
Just now learning to look at modes independently for their sounds.

Learned them first based on major scale pattern and then had to refer to major scale to move them around.

Knowing the intervals within each mode is allowing me to play all over the fretboard and to really understand which scale works best over each chord and why.

It is very labor intensive. I spent about a month just on dorian with my guitar teacher and am now going to mixolydian (for ii-V-I play). Will go over Ionian next, but not just the 'pattern', but the intervals and where they fall starting from every root note on the neck.

 

[mildperv]

It is very labor intensive. I spent about a month just on dorian with my guitar teacher and am now going to mixolydian (for ii-V-I play). Will go over Ionian next, but not just the 'pattern', but the intervals and where they fall starting from every root note on the neck.

I would guess you're 16-20 with plenty of perky little brain cells yearning for knowledge.

I'm nearly 50 with a mispent youth who finds it challenging to remember what I had for breakfast.

 

[JonR]

I just want to practice new scales off of the painfully learned major pattern.

After getting the major pattern down, it was just so much easier to start at 6 for the minor scale...

I understand it's musically better to consider the Mode as being in the key of the first note rather than a derivative of C.

I find it easier to apply patterns to the fretboard rarther than notes. The notes are coming, but not as easily as patterns at this time.

That's fine. Just remember that mode patterns are not mode sounds, necessarily.
You don't get a mode just by starting a major scale on a different step. That note has to sound like the keynote- which means it's more important to end on that note than start on it (although both is good); but mainly it needs to be supported by a chord or bass note on the same root.
(A "D dorian" pattern on an A bass note will be an A aeolian sound.)

As long as you understand that, that's OK.

 

[Tom Gross]

Is Lydian the major scale starting on the 4th note, or is it the major scale with a #4?

You must learn to see it both ways, Grasshoper....

 

[JonR]

Is Lydian the major scale starting on the 4th note, or is it the major scale with a #4?

You must learn to see it both ways, Grasshoper....

Well, ideally the latter. You can derive it either way, but you should hear it the second way.

 

[GaryOz]

I've had great success with giving this system to my students.

Learn these five things with each mode:
1.What is the Parent Scale
2.Interval Formula (1,etc.....)
3.Play the Scale
4.Play the 4 voice Arpeggio derived from the scale (1,3,5,7 whatever they may be)
5.Play the chord you get from these notes

You definitely need to learn modes both ways, as stand alone scales in their own right and as relative scales to a Parent Scale.

Gary.

 

[docbop]

Play a two octave major scale. Okay you just played all seven modes you're smarter than you thought. The modes are a Sound, too many especially guitarist just learn modes as some fingering that's suppose to be magic then get frustrated and blame the modes when they play them and play crap.

First break them in to chord types.
Major - Ionian, Lydian
Minor - Dorian, Phyrigan, Aeolian
Dominant - Mixolydian and Locrian

Now make major, minor, and dominant play-along tracks and start trying them out. Listen for the notes that stand out. Everyone mentions Santana plays Dorian listen for that major 6th against a minor chord.

Learn the modes notes that give them their sound
Ionian - vanilla major scale
Dorian - Minor with a maj6th
Phrygian - Minor with b2 (Spanish minor sound)
Lydian - Major with #4(11)
Mixolydian - plain dominant scale or can think of as major scale with b7
Aeolian - natural minor scale
Locrian - altered dominant sound b2, b3, b5, b6.

So now play more and focus on the sound of the notes within the mode that give it its sound against the related chord.

So where you come up with fingerings doesn't matter. Use offsets of a major scale or learn fingering for each. What is important is learning the sound and then practice making lines using those sounds. Now the modes have value.

 

[Goo Fighters]

So where you come up with fingerings doesn't matter. Use offsets of a major scale or learn fingering for each. What is important is learning the sound and then practice making lines using those sounds. Now the modes have value.

There's way too many modal "lessons" on Youtube where some intermediate level player will play the pattern and call that a mode. A mode doesn't exist without HARMONY.

 

[marcher5877]

These are the modes:

C Ionian CDEFGABC
D Dorian DEFGABCD
E Phrygian EFGABCDE
F Lydian FGABCDEF
G Mixolydian GABCDEFG
A Aeolian ABCDEFGA
B Locrian BCDEFGAB


Does this make sense? You can change the tonic of any of them, but the intervals of any Mixolydian scale and the G mixolydian scale will the exact same interval pattern. Does this make sense?