My new modeler is a..............................

oldmanrockin

Member
Messages
181
Not yet invented. Here's what i want. I want the GENERIC 500FX. I want 25 amps, numbered 1-25. No plexi name, or soldano name or fender name or etc. I want 20 speaker cabinets, numbered 1-20. No V30 name or 25watt greenback name or 65 watt 4x12 name or etc. I want 5 delays 1-5, 3 chorus's 1-3, 5 reverbs 1-5. You get the idea. Its stupid to get a new modeler and immediatley grab a plexi, and a 4x12 v30 and go no thats not it. If there were no "names" each part woud be judged strictly on the sound you get. How many times has someone gone" well that can't sound good, its a fender head with an ampeg bottom. And it gets passed up. It will never happen because half the people would say, "well it aint got a marshall, it can't be any good". Side note: Spend 2 or 3 hrs watching one person in GC try out amps. They chase around the whole store, and get the same basic tone out of every amp. The market would be small for this modeler, and thats why it will never be, but i'd buy one, and probably end up with the same damn tone i have now!
 
Messages
10,705
That's a goofy idea, IMO. The amp models are there because they're based on a particular amp, and should be used as a jumping off point. Why would I want to cycle through all the amp models, if I could just jump to the Mark or Recto model and then tweak to taste?
 

Frank Ritchotte

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
6,533
I think that device will come but in the form of additional choice. People need to relate to a sound they know because amplifiers have been all there is till recently. I totally get and support the concept of not constraining devices to existing amps (litigator, fatality, etc) but at least for the forseable futire "models" need to be there so that guitarists have something to relate the tone to that they have been using. At some point that need to relate will go away.
 

ksandvik

Member
Messages
6,328
Look at Boss Katana and Blackstar amp sim amps as they are indeed going for generic sounds -- which I indeed think it's good. I don't want to mimic a JCM900, I take one on-stage if I need to and rather like using new guitar sounds that will become the next trend anyone wants to mimic.
 

ColdFrixion

Member
Messages
5,736
Not yet invented. Here's what i want. I want the GENERIC 500FX. I want 25 amps, numbered 1-25. No plexi name, or soldano name or fender name or etc. I want 20 speaker cabinets, numbered 1-20. No V30 name or 25watt greenback name or 65 watt 4x12 name or etc. I want 5 delays 1-5, 3 chorus's 1-3, 5 reverbs 1-5. You get the idea. Its stupid to get a new modeler and immediatley grab a plexi, and a 4x12 v30 and go no thats not it. If there were no "names" each part woud be judged strictly on the sound you get. How many times has someone gone" well that can't sound good, its a fender head with an ampeg bottom. And it gets passed up. It will never happen because half the people would say, "well it aint got a marshall, it can't be any good". Side note: Spend 2 or 3 hrs watching one person in GC try out amps. They chase around the whole store, and get the same basic tone out of every amp. The market would be small for this modeler, and thats why it will never be, but i'd buy one, and probably end up with the same damn tone i have now!

A modeler like the Axe FX uses names that almost require the user to look them up in a table to see which amps they're based on because it's a violation of intellectual property for the company to use brand names. You'll find the same is true for other modelers. The amp names chosen by most companies won't tell you much in most cases.
 
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radiolab

Senior Member
Messages
1,122
I can get behind this idea. I too would end up with the same tone as what I'm using now. I've found through my delux reverb, helix, mustang iiiv2, vox ac30, Sunn model t, that I always end up sounding like me. My rigs go from 250$-3000$+ and I always end up sounding the same. And that to me is a good thing. I take pride in myself sounding great through my mustang amp.

Now to the people asking why I have $250 rigs and $3000+ rigs the answer is becuase I can. I work hard and am able to spend my money the way I want.
 

randombastage

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
4,628
Not a way to have numbers instead of names but here is an enlightening experiment to train your brain to not judge in the way you describe that many of us do so that you won't feel like you need that kind of blind labeling. I call it developing 'producer ears'.

Play some music you like the guitar work in through your monitors, favorite artist mix or shuffle your song list in iTunes etc.
Now plug into a modeler and start using factory presets and get levels set so your guitar is 'in the mix'. Start arbitrarily running through the presets and jamming along to the music.
You start to hear many of those formerly 'crappy factory presets' aren't so crappy anymore. You also will hear that maybe that modeler did get the Plexi right because it might not be the Plexi sound you usually gravitate to...or sound like the Plexi in your room...but it sounds damn perfect in many mixes.

Do this enough and you start judging any modeler only in the moment within a mix by the sounds you found/find instead of rating the labeled sound based on some memory of what the labeled amp's "real tube" name sake sounded like in one instance you are familiar with...

For creation the important benchmark is never a sound you remember from the past it is what you hear right then and can it move you.
 
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oldmanrockin

Member
Messages
181
I guess what i'm getting at is, for me anyway, the labeled amps, speakers, etc, are like a crutch. Go to those first, and sometimes settle for one that might be good, but not the best i can find. I mean its a plexi and a v30 4x12. It must sound good. I am amazed sometimes at the combinations of stuff that i dont think i would play in real life, that sounds good on the modeler. Maybe my best bet, is to just not look at the names and keep trying combinations till i'm happy.
 

Souper

Member
Messages
650
The idea of modelling amps and cabs is restrictive. I guess you're trying to unrestrict to some degree by removing specifics. But digital can do much more than is possible by analog. What not forget the concept of amp and cab all together? Digital makes that possible if the bias towards tubes can be eliminated.
 

GuitarKidd

Member
Messages
3,616
Didn't Rocktron have a "modeler" a few years back that wasn't based on any amp, but had a limited number of amp types to choose from. If I remember correctly, it sounded pretty good. However it seemed geared more towards the metal/rock crowd.
 

SteveO

Member
Messages
17,016
Didn't Rocktron have a "modeler" a few years back that wasn't based on any amp, but had a limited number of amp types to choose from. If I remember correctly, it sounded pretty good. However it seemed geared more towards the metal/rock crowd.

Amp simulation was around for almost a decade before Line 6 hit the market with the original AxSys (and introduced the world to "modeling"), and it was pretty much all generic stuff that wasn't overtly patterned after any specific amps. I still have my old Digitech GSP21 Legend (bought new in 1994), and actually used it direct to the board a couple of times in the mid 90s when I had problems with my tube rig. Not even close to the sounds available today, but it got me through the night.
 

jageya

Senior Member
Messages
4,251
blackstar id260 amp is similar to this idea...6 preamps to choose from and then a bunch of power amp tubes to choose...
 

rsm

Senior Member
Messages
14,080
Have a look at Blue Cat Audio's Destructor (there's a free demo plug-in version), then have a look at edit mode: your sound shaping and sculpting; the signal process is:

Gate ---> Comp ---> Pre-Filter ---> Destructor ---> Post-filter ---> Limiter

It's the first digital modeling I've seen that takes a modern soundshaping approach to guitar signal processing not based on traditional amp models, tube types, preamps, power amps, speakers, cabs, micing....

http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_Destructor/

I'm still exploring it, and other guitar plug-ins they have (demo versions) and having a blast...I'm considering purchasing a few of their plugins and creating a hardware rig for it as well, however I have several other music-related things I'm working on so it may be a few months.

Worth a look IMO
 

Pantalooj

Member
Messages
3,826
Boss Katana and Yamaha THR100 are close there on the amp side.

Exactly. I would even say that they are there rather than being close. Whilst they don't have numbers for their amps, they have generic descriptions, which generally tell you about the gain structure. Arguably, the Brown channel on the Katana hints at a particular brand of amp, but aren't there a few brands of "real" amp that produce a brown sound?

When I first tried a THR100 I was mightily impressed by the tone sculpting options, including the amp models, none of which are based on a simulation of a particular real amp. The "tube" selections made a whole lot of sense too.

To the OPs point, both THR and Katana are liberating in that they let you create tones with you ears. Both nicely done via twisty knobs and a few swtiches too, rather than endless UI options.
 

ltkojak

Member
Messages
1,039
Scuffham Amps' S-Gear embraces the OP's kind of approach, providing five amps models that simply suggests what's based on, adding three generic-labeled but very effective effects that REALLY are great, both for live and studio use, used either as a standalone app or as a plug-in in a DAW.

The included IRs are a bit more specific, as I think they should be.

HTH,
 

DunedinDragon

Member
Messages
1,843
I guess the whole "tone sculpting" thing is interesting from an intellectual point of view, i.e. create your own amp kind of thing. But from a practical viewpoint it seems like it's a LOT more tweaking which means a lot less playing.

I suppose it boils down to what you're trying to accomplish with your modeler. For me I'm not trying to find "my sound". I'm trying to find the sound that best suits the song. That kind of process is a whole lot easier when I know what kind of amp I might be dealing with. If it's a clean jazz sound I can probably dismiss 80 or 90 percent of the models and concentrate on the few that might match the sound I need for that song. The same idea applies if it's a mid-gain rocker or blues song. In my world I don't want to spend a lot of time selecting and tweaking components. I want to get it setup quickly so I can start playing.

That being said, I don't think 5 amps would be adequate. For example not all clean sounds are the same. A Twin, Vox, Jazz Rivet, and HiWatt can all do clean...just different variations of clean.
 




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