Name That Tune

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by StevenA, Apr 15, 2019.

  1. StevenA

    StevenA Member

    Messages:
    3,574
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Location:
    Warren, NJ
    Pat Metheny said you should be able to tell the name of the tune being played just by listening to the solos. If it’s a unique chord progression like ATTYA, Joy Spring, or Giant Steps, then it’s pretty easy. But if it’s a tune based on blues changes, or Rhythm changes, you may have to look for the melody in the solos. Often times, it’s not there. What do you think?
     
  2. Tootone

    Tootone Member

    Messages:
    2,512
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2016
    I think he's right in saying a "good" solo becomes a signature of the song.

    This is not the case if the solo was just a "more of the same" jam.

    I like good solos... the music world eventually steered away from them as uneccessary wankery in a 3 minute slot... probably with good reason. But I think a good solo "bridge" is a useful part of the song... it has to make "sense" within the song.

    It needn't be guitar either... keys, horns, vocal wails... whatever. As long as it carries you away and becomes "the bit you're waiting for".
     
  3. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

    Messages:
    18,150
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Yes. As you understand form and harmony you'll get better at playing and listening.
     
    cubistguitar likes this.
  4. StevenA

    StevenA Member

    Messages:
    3,574
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Location:
    Warren, NJ
    Would it be your opinion that Coltrane’s solo on GS is not particularly noteworthy, because I can’t find any reference to the melody in that solo. I can’t find references to many solos.
     
  5. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

    Messages:
    18,150
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    The harmonic progression of Giant Steps is 'noteworthy'. Coltrane like to use part of it, as a substitution, in many of his takes of covers and originals. Listen to Coltrane play Limehouse Blues. Can you hear him superimpose the GS progression in his solo?
     
  6. Duffy Pratt

    Duffy Pratt Member

    Messages:
    2,026
    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2016
    Two skills involved here: the soloists skill in improvising on a tune, and the listeners skill in following the solo. Sometimes the issue might not be with the soloist. Also, what Metheny is talking about only applies to some types of improvisation.
     
    Tag and guitarjazz like this.
  7. dsimon665

    dsimon665 Supporting Member

    Messages:
    1,558
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2007
    Location:
    19-tone, CA
    Good question - I think it was a general point he was making. Of course, if there's a generic form like rhythm changes, one can at least identify it as rhythm changes. Specific contrafacts can have unique parts to them, and/or people might mix and match. Identifying those levels requires knowing the specific changes of that tune - and/or the history of development of the tune (sometimes based off of another contrafact).

    At a high level, a 12-bar blues form can be recognized even if its been reharmonized (Steely Dan - Peg).

    its kind of like "taxonomic rank" in biological classification (species, genus, family ...) However, recognizing a specific species might not guarantee someone can recognize the higher levels of classifications, or recognize differences in other classifications at the same level.
     
    strike3 and guitarjazz like this.
  8. StevenA

    StevenA Member

    Messages:
    3,574
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Location:
    Warren, NJ
    I’d like to discuss the solo , and it’s apparent lack of any reference to the melody. I found a bounty full of solos that, to me, have no connection to the melody. So, is that somewhat overrated?
     
  9. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

    Messages:
    18,150
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Name that tune:
     
  10. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

    Messages:
    18,150
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Giant Steps is terribly overrated.
     
  11. StevenA

    StevenA Member

    Messages:
    3,574
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Location:
    Warren, NJ
    You involved in that?
     
  12. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Supporting Member

    Messages:
    9,606
    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Location:
    we eat a lot of cheese and drink a lot of beer
    There’s no rules as to what defines a good solo. For any example you give you can find another which does the opposite (probably even in Methany’s own catalog).

    But yes, when learning this stuff a common goal is to be able to pick out the chord changes based on the lines. As in, if there’s no accompaniment you can still “hear” the changes within the solo, if that makes sense. But to say it’s a requirement is silly IMO...
     
    dsimon665 likes this.
  13. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

    Messages:
    18,150
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Paul Bley's solo on this seems to make complete musical sense thought I'm not sure it's on the same road as the standard changes.
     
    ivers and Eric Rowland like this.
  14. Eric Rowland

    Eric Rowland Supporting Member

    Messages:
    8,681
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN
  15. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

    Messages:
    18,150
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    That's one of the best Metheny clips I've ever seen. I used to have Moses' Drum Wisdom book. I wonder if he was seeing dolphins when he was playing on this clip?
     
    Eric Rowland likes this.
  16. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

    Messages:
    18,150
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Name that tune:
    If you listen to the 'out head' at around 9:00 you'll hear a quote from the original melody.
    This is on my 'top five greatest jazz piano recordings' list. Chick got to go to the Steinway showroom and pick out the piano.
     
    vintagelove and dsimon665 like this.
  17. dsimon665

    dsimon665 Supporting Member

    Messages:
    1,558
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2007
    Location:
    19-tone, CA
    Comparing this to the OP..."tell the name of the tune" doesn't mean "recognize the melody". I don't think he would say that. Recognizing the form and changes is another way to "tell the name of the tune". The more unique the changes the more recognizable the tune.

    ...and this doesn't mean a solo has to follow the changes strictly for it to be recognizable. Neither following the changes or the melody references will make or break the criteria being discussed here (recognizing the tune)

    That being said, referencing the melody in a solo is one strategy...and I don't think its overrated. People also inject other melodies, nursery rhymes, etc.
     
    guitarjazz likes this.
  18. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

    Messages:
    34,476
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I think Coltrane does whatever he feels like at the moment. ;) Mr PC still strikes me as one of the greatest solos ever on an up tempo minor blues. He uses parts of the melody all over and twists and turns it so many ways, he wrings it dry!!
     
    59burst likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice