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NAMM: Was that... it?

Madmax25

Member
Messages
1,278
So is NAMM over? Was that it for new products in the digital and modeling domain? Only really interesting product then is the Studio Devil / Atomic Amplifire... Unless you're just starting out as a guitarist, in which case you can choose between new bedroom amps from Vox, Peavey, Blackstar and Line 6 (on top of the myriad of existing options for this demographic, i.e. Roland Cube, Fender Mustang, etc. etc.)

I gotta say, I'm hugely dissappointed. I didn't expect a revolution but I was at least hoping for a new flagship, floorbased modeler from either one of the existing players (Line 6, Digitech, Zoom, Boss, even Vox...) or from new players (Blackstar). But all I got for my 6 months of anticipation was an RP360x, which guess what? We all knew about 6 months ago. Woopdidoo...

I don't get it? There is a new synthesizer, keyboard, midi controller or analog synth released almost every day but I can't get a new, decent floorbased guitar amp modeler every couple o' years? Come on...

Sorry for the rant, I'm just really dissappointed. I was hoping for just a little more... :cry:
 

jerryratpack

Beano can’t cure this sort of GAS
Double Platinum Member
Messages
1,827
I know many people were hoping that there were going to be flagship modelers coming out this year, and I had been stumped on why we have not seen this either.

Being relatively new to this world of modeling compared to many here on TGP , my reaction was similar to yours .

But reading many threads recently, there is a theory that this flagship market is being approached very cautiously . The market is better for the lower end units and / or more safe regarding return on investment..

I don't know if any of this is fact, but it seems to me something is stopping these companies from putting out next gen flagship products.

Just as an example, Digitech had BIG plans for the IPB-10 flagship product that came out a couple years ago. At least that was what they were pronouncing on these 3 to 5 page ads they had going for a short period of time...

But I think the first IOS revision caused so many problems for them, they abandoned that product. Of course along with poor sales and resistance to the IOS dongle, etc didn't help them. So what did they come out with this year ? A RP355 replacement... And they seem to have a really strong customer base that is crying out for a new GSP / RP1000 replacement...

Although, I think for the home player some cool things were announced as you mentioned.

Another product that is getting attention is the Tech 21 FLY RiG , although not a floor modeler ...

But it would of been great to see a slew of flagship floor modelers , but at least for this Namm, it didn't happen.
 

Spider-Man

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
5,601
Yes, I was also hoping for a better floor modeler with user IR capability.

The Atomic Amps Amplifire looks promising, but the form factor is a total miss for me - I'd have to bring a midi controller and expression pedal to make it work for me and at that point I'll just stick with my Axe-FX. I got on the waiting list, but I have already decided I won't be buying one. I was hoping to simplify my Church rig with an all-in-one floor unit and it looks like that won't be happening any time soon.
 

jhall

Member
Messages
849
I take it as a sign of a combination of business acumen (you don't just throw money at a "flagship" product without knowing you'll make more money than you throw at it). It IS a business by the way. Add to that the fact that modeling has become quite excellent even at the lower consumer level. These "established" companies have some decent "businesspeople" in them and know this. All they have at this point is advertising to hawk incremental "improvements". Why are we upset by this? It is what it is. And for the record I'm quite happy with my collection of toys but yes, yes I still want more.
 

Madmax25

Member
Messages
1,278
Yes, I was also hoping for a better floor modeler with user IR capability.

The Atomic Amps Amplifire looks promising, but the form factor is a total miss for me - I'd have to bring a midi controller and expression pedal to make it work for me and at that point I'll just stick with my Axe-FX. I got on the waiting list, but I have already decided I won't be buying one. I was hoping to simplify my Church rig with an all-in-one floor unit and it looks like that won't be happening any time soon.
:agree

Apart from the fact that I don't own an AxeFx, that is exactly my thoughts on the subject.
 

Madmax25

Member
Messages
1,278
I take it as a sign of a combination of business acumen (you don't just throw money at a "flagship" product without knowing you'll make more money than you throw at it). It IS a business by the way. Add to that the fact that modeling has become quite excellent even at the lower consumer level. These "established" companies have some decent "businesspeople" in them and know this. All they have at this point is advertising to hawk incremental "improvements". Why are we upset by this? It is what it is. And for the record I'm quite happy with my collection of toys but yes, yes I still want more.
Oh, believe me, I know it's business. And I'm not dissappointed because I feel "entitled" to a new flagship modeler, I'm dissappointed because I thought there was a market for it and money to be made from it. Especially since, like I mentioned, there seem to be a million new products in a lot of, if not equally competitive/expensive endavours, then at least very similar product groups (digital modelling amps, synths, controllers, etc.). And almost all of the current amp modeler kings have recently released products in at least one of these categories.

But I agree, the modelling has become quite excellent at the consumer level. Which is why it would seem rather easy to produce a product that didn't necessarilly revolutionize amp modelling (although some companies would make that claim...), but just focused on ironing out some of the short comings of the current generation. Including the option for 3rd party IR loading would be an obvious example.
 

TheAmpFactory

Member
Messages
835
To throw a spanner in the works here.

- Cheaper products will create more of a revenue to mainstream companies than the more expensive boutique products.
- There are still more Pods/Podfarms in studios today than Kemper/Axefx etc, because they are cheap, and can get return.
-Top ranged products simply exist from a "extra level" statistic, to get more for your money, but lets look at the facts...

-Every music store need to address the growing ages in guitar players markets.. so this ranges from the bedroom warrior (there main customer base) - guitar startups whom don't have a lot of money to spend at there skill level... and so cheap amps/effects/all in ones etc are a VERY powerful marketing tool, thus outselling anything on the higher market.

-So for a big dev company (line6, roland etc) to pocket good money in return, they will release cheaper products because they know they can win this... - secondly trying to compete with Kemper/AxeFX is no easy task...as out of every 1000 players that use modellers, only a small tiny percentage will have the top brands.

-Ive done my market research as Ive a product idea that maybe in the works that will compete (in a different way) - but I cannot justify its market position or a good return at its current tech level...(its tough out there, so Ive paused the project for now)

So this is why we have not seen any "top shelf" new products yet....

My take on it anyway....
Take this will a pinch of salt, im not being factual, and simply posting as a observation.
 

Spider-Man

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
5,601
Yes, I feel the same as Madmax25. I also thought there was a market for a better floor unit. I'm not looking for a revolution either as Fractal has already done that (and Kemper too, but I have never played one). I'm not at all upset with anything, nor am I at all unhappy with my Fractal rig - just hoping something would come out that would allow me to simplify things a bit more.

It appears that Atomic has put the right features in their new unit (we'll see when more is revealed) with the exception of the UI for some of us (I know it will work well for others). Atomic has done one thing right - they have recognized that many guitarist don't want to give up their pedals so making this at a size that fits on a pedal board with a few other pedals makes perfect sense for that segment of the market. If the product is successful, perhaps we'll see another version down the road with a more full-featured UI. That's one thing that I think Line6 has gotten right with their floor units.
 

Will Chen

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
6,914
I actually find the "consumerist anger" quite interesting. Quite a few posts literally angry that Digitech, Line 6, or someone else didn't put out a high end unit. But if they did and it was $1500 how many of those posters would complain it was too expensive? What I see is a growing group wanting a high end device at a bargain basement price. Fun to dream about, getting worked up NAMM after NAMM is probably unhealthy...
 

Madmax25

Member
Messages
1,278
I actually find the "consumerist anger" quite interesting. Quite a few posts literally angry that Digitech, Line 6, or someone else didn't put out a high end unit. But if they did and it was $1500 how many of those posters would complain it was too expensive? What I see is a growing group wanting a high end device at a bargain basement price. Fun to dream about, getting worked up NAMM after NAMM is probably unhealthy...
I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn't hoping for or dreaming/fantasizing about a Kemper/Axe competitor at 1/4 or 1/3 of the price.... I wasn't looking for a high end unit from one of the consumerist/prosumerist companies. I would have been perfectly happy with an updated Zoom G5 with an extra row of switches and a 3rd party IR loader. Or something else entirely. I was just hoping for something, not nothing...

I'm also not angry, just dissappointed... (now I sound like the parent of a teenager)
 

CharlyG

Play It Forward
Silver Supporting Member
Messages
7,770
They have two NAMM shows a year. It would be something special if everyone introduced amazing new stuff every six months...


Just sayin...and remember the economy....
 

richpjr

Member
Messages
2,409
I'm kind of starting to wonder if the slow down in the release of this type of devices isn't the new norm. For better or worse, the world is rapidly shifting to mobile devices and as they are getting more powerful I'm guessing you'll see a lot of continued growth and emphasis in this area.
 

Tom Von Kramm

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
7,042
Some good responses ITT, some are showing good intuition about something that we objectively know. I can't say what our future plans are but I can say the following things:

The $500+ price point is very volatile right now.
The rack segment isn't just down, it is non-existant. Like totally evaporated.
The MFX segment has shrunk considerably in the last 5 years.
Everyone we poll wants smaller easier to use devices.
Recession.

All of these factors combined make everyone quite cautious.
 

rsm

Senior Member
Messages
14,081
Perhaps not part of the MI process, but "testing the waters" could at least include more visible questions to people in the industry regarding the "requirements" for and potential interest in commodity flagship modelers. I'm guessing they do market research, but why not more like the auto industry: make prototype "mock-ups" as just that; ideas that may not get the green light for production? Different business models and processes for sure.

For bass, I was hoping for a Zoom B3 update, at least similar to the G3 software update or even a Zoom "B5" (G5 for bass). Nope.

For guitar, a software update to the G5 at a minimum; or even a new flagship guitar board in the $500 price range that would provide better foot navigation controls for live use, and perhaps more processing for longer chains or dual chains (e.g., two amps, wet/dry, etc.), more effect displays or ability to set which effects in the chain are displayed in the available displays...oh, and at least some clean amp models,... Nope.

:(
 

Spider-Man

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
5,601
Everyone we poll wants smaller easier to use devices.
Well, you didn't poll me, LOL!

Thanks for chiming in. Good insights to the market. I can see the hesitancy of the manufacturers. Personally, I'm all for technology and don't like the trend towards dumbed-down devices. And, let's keep this in perspective. This is the Gear Page where we whine and complain about stuff while we're sitting in the middle of a pile of fantastic gear (myself included).
 

mikah912

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
7,647
Some good responses ITT, some are showing good intuition about something that we objectively know. I can't say what our future plans are but I can say the following things:

The $500+ price point is very volatile right now.
The rack segment isn't just down, it is non-existant. Like totally evaporated.
The MFX segment has shrunk considerably in the last 5 years.
Everyone we poll wants smaller easier to use devices.
Recession.

All of these factors combined make everyone quite cautious.
Exactly. Can't be too tough on you guys, I guess. All your competition has come to the same conclusions, and probably rightfully so.
 

eriwebnerr

Member
Messages
2,789
I would have been perfectly happy with an updated Zoom G5 with an extra row of switches and a 3rd party IR loader...(now I sound like the parent of a teenager)
This is posted a lot here - not trying to single you out - just noting that I don't think most people realize the processing power (and by extension the cost) required to do this in real time. Also the vast majority of their consumer base has no clue what an IR is.
My hopes were high too - that's the problem. It wasn't realistic. In there meantime the Two Notes does third party IRs and sounds fantastic coupled with the G3 or G5.
 

slugworth

Member
Messages
2,687
Exactly. Can't be too tough on you guys, I guess. All your competition has come to the same conclusions, and probably rightfully so.
At some point there is a stronger economic position in NOT doing what everyone else is doing (small easy devices and practice amps) despite their popularity in consumer surveys. I think the current wave of small devices and practice amps is going to result in some product failures in the market. Unfortunately that may result in these companies exiting the markets altogether, instead of re-evaluating their market positioning.

Look at Vox. To me their new practice amp is a total overpriced joke. It looks like they've completely abandoned the ToneLab line, which had huge potential for expansion.
 

Baminated

Senior Member
Messages
6,491
looks like i gambled and won with my GSP1101 /RP1000 purchase

Now it's going to be a decision regarding upgraded IR two notes CAB vs. Studio Devil
 






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