Need help with pedal order for leads...

89strat

Member
Messages
1,201
My main setup is a guitar, RAT, Delay. I also have a phase 90, wah, and a tuner in there. But basically, most of my tone is a RAT into a clean fender amp. I play in two bands - one is a three piece where I'm able to go from rythm to lead with my volume knob, but because I'm the only guitarist in the band, the very minor jump in volume works. The other is a bigger band where I'm not really cutting through at all. I sometime use a tube screamer in front of the RAT as a boost, tube screamer low gain and RAT gain at about 10:00. That gets me more distortion, no volume boost, but I love the feel and sustain I get from that setup. Basically, I want that, but with a volume boost.

Placing the tube screamer after the rat is not at all the same, but It gets me above the mix and cuts through, but I don't like the feel and sound. I've been using an mxr micro booster after the rat, and that certainly fattens it up and jumps out in the mix, but I'm not getting that added sustain and touch sensitivity as if the boost was before the rat. And, I just don't have enough room on my board to use a boost before and after the rat. I think I may be going about this the wrong way. So, I was thinking a compressor, maybe with a clean blend that placed after my rat could give me the slight volume boost I need along with some added sustain without adding more distortion?
 

BlueLou

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
152
The sustain that you would get from a comp does not seem like it would make you cut any better. Mabye an EQ after might help you keep the feel of the rat, help you cut, and boost volume, since the TS after (what I was thinking while reading your post) is not what you're looking for. You won't get your boosted rat tho... I guess you aren't going to be able to get both things. If room is an issue they make a mini TS. HTH
 
Last edited:

MogwaiBoy

Member
Messages
3,692
That's a tricky one. The only way to get exactly what you want would be to get a second Rat and put it inside a "Lead" bypass loop, after the first Rat.

Rat > Bypass Loop (Tubescreamer ON, Rat ON with volume boosted) > Amp
 

Rick CD

Member
Messages
743
you and I are in the same camp. I like the boost before the drive pedal to get that sustain. Some of the responsibility, though, has to be with the rest of the band. They’ve gotta adjust to help you stand out for solos, Is it another guitarist, or keys, or both that’s cutting in on the same frequencies?
 

Gabazz

Member
Messages
234
I love to have a dynacomp before the RAT for leads. It gives me fuzz like sustain. The dynacomp will take away some of the lows, which is great for definition for lead playing.

Basically any pedal before the RAT is going to distort the RAT more. To gain more volume you need something after. I find that anything after the RAT messes with the tone. Compressing before distortion is going to give you the impression of more volume without being actually louder. This is by increasing the average loudness without increasing the peak loudness.
 

tonedover

This Is Fine.
Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
5,983
My main setup is a guitar, RAT, Delay. I also have a phase 90, wah, and a tuner in there. But basically, most of my tone is a RAT into a clean fender amp. I play in two bands - one is a three piece where I'm able to go from rythm to lead with my volume knob, but because I'm the only guitarist in the band, the very minor jump in volume works. The other is a bigger band where I'm not really cutting through at all. I sometime use a tube screamer in front of the RAT as a boost, tube screamer low gain and RAT gain at about 10:00. That gets me more distortion, no volume boost, but I love the feel and sustain I get from that setup. Basically, I want that, but with a volume boost.

Placing the tube screamer after the rat is not at all the same, but It gets me above the mix and cuts through, but I don't like the feel and sound. I've been using an mxr micro booster after the rat, and that certainly fattens it up and jumps out in the mix, but I'm not getting that added sustain and touch sensitivity as if the boost was before the rat. And, I just don't have enough room on my board to use a boost before and after the rat. I think I may be going about this the wrong way. So, I was thinking a compressor, maybe with a clean blend that placed after my rat could give me the slight volume boost I need along with some added sustain without adding more distortion?
i think you should get a cheap mooer yellow comp, put it after the rat, like a boost, start with the compression low, and raise for more sustain, and use the tone knob on the comp to add more high end,

this all gets you more volume, sustain and more highs to cut up temporarily

i prefer optical compressors as they dont add much more noise to the signal.

food for thought
 

89strat

Member
Messages
1,201
you and I are in the same camp. I like the boost before the drive pedal to get that sustain. Some of the responsibility, though, has to be with the rest of the band. They’ve gotta adjust to help you stand out for solos, Is it another guitarist, or keys, or both that’s cutting in on the same frequencies?
Both Keys and Guitarist, they're not helping, and we are fighting for same frequencies but I've brought this up to them at the last practice and talked about arranging the dynamics during solos. If there's a gig in our future, NY is mostly still under lockdown, we tend to play a lot of smaller clubs, or even restaurants were my stepping out for a volume boost could be annoying if over an already loud band.

I thought the compressor idea might smooth some of that out bit where I could get a little boost to the volume without having to gain everything up. Maybe I should be looking for a different type of overdrive to go after the RAT. I mean, a RAT is a gain pedal that when boosted sounds great, so maybe there's a gain pedal that sounds great with RAT boosting into it that's not a tube screamer.
 

Riffa

Member
Messages
4,602
i think you should get a cheap mooer yellow comp, put it after the rat, like a boost, start with the compression low, and raise for more sustain, and use the tone knob on the comp to add more high end,

this all gets you more volume, sustain and more highs to cut up temporarily

i prefer optical compressors as they dont add much more noise to the signal.

food for thought
This. I used to run a comp after my RAT (before I sold the latter) and had very nice boost/sustain out of the pairing. I now run a Boss CP-1X after drive and I love it. It's super quiet and fattens dirt up in a very nice way.
 

S. G.

Member
Messages
37
I mean, a RAT is a gain pedal that when boosted sounds great, so maybe there's a gain pedal that sounds great with RAT boosting into it that's not a tube screamer.
I use a Rat and have used a Red Llama, Timmy and a Keeley Fuzz Head after for leads, at differing times, with good results. I set them low gain and above unity
 

bloozeman1

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
2,001
add another tube screamer at the end of the chain for your boost. many people use 2 tube screamers
 

89strat

Member
Messages
1,201
add another tube screamer at the end of the chain for your boost. many people use 2 tube screamers
I have an Maxon od808 that I've been using for years and love the pedal on its own, love it before the RAT, but at the end of the chain sounds muddy, it almost cuts sustain, really takes over the whole signal no matter how I set it.
 

Ray175

Member
Messages
430
To be honest I'd add an eq at the end of the chain, boosting those frequencies where you play your solos..... it will also give you an option to resculpt your overall sound.
 

ndparse89

Member
Messages
538
My main setup is a guitar, RAT, Delay. I also have a phase 90, wah, and a tuner in there. But basically, most of my tone is a RAT into a clean fender amp. I play in two bands - one is a three piece where I'm able to go from rythm to lead with my volume knob, but because I'm the only guitarist in the band, the very minor jump in volume works. The other is a bigger band where I'm not really cutting through at all. I sometime use a tube screamer in front of the RAT as a boost, tube screamer low gain and RAT gain at about 10:00. That gets me more distortion, no volume boost, but I love the feel and sustain I get from that setup. Basically, I want that, but with a volume boost.

Placing the tube screamer after the rat is not at all the same, but It gets me above the mix and cuts through, but I don't like the feel and sound. I've been using an mxr micro booster after the rat, and that certainly fattens it up and jumps out in the mix, but I'm not getting that added sustain and touch sensitivity as if the boost was before the rat. And, I just don't have enough room on my board to use a boost before and after the rat. I think I may be going about this the wrong way. So, I was thinking a compressor, maybe with a clean blend that placed after my rat could give me the slight volume boost I need along with some added sustain without adding more distortion?
Anything that boosts the gain before your rat will not increase your volume noticeably, that's just the nature of gain stacking. If you want to fatten the input to your rat AND boost the volume you'll need boosters before and after the rat. Tubescreamer is definitely the perfect pre-boost. Post-boost should be something clean and transparent, or maybe a BD-2 if you want it to add a touch of extra hair. If you want to be able to engage them simultaneously I'd suggest a programmable loop switcher like the Boss ES5 (which is also cool because it lets you freely change the pedal order).
 

R2-DD2

Member
Messages
382
some people boost with Klon-types after their main overdrive for this reason.

The Klon gives you the volume, mid-boost, compression, and gain similar to a tubescreamer, but doesn't change your sound so much when it's last in line.
 

89strat

Member
Messages
1,201
some people boost with Klon-types after their main overdrive for this reason.

The Klon gives you the volume, mid-boost, compression, and gain similar to a tubescreamer, but doesn't change your sound so much when it's last in line.
I've never tried a Klon , but a lot the descriptions I've read, and videos I've seen were kind of leading me towards that as well. The Tumnus and Archer look very interesting to me.
 

R2-DD2

Member
Messages
382
I've never tried a Klon , but a lot the descriptions I've read, and videos I've seen were kind of leading me towards that as well. The Tumnus and Archer look very interesting to me.
one nice thing is if you didn't like it as a boost after your RAT, it still functions as its own stand-alone overdrive pedal so you might find another use for it anyway.
 

tonedover

This Is Fine.
Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
5,983
My main setup is a guitar, RAT, Delay. I also have a phase 90, wah, and a tuner in there. But basically, most of my tone is a RAT into a clean fender amp. I play in two bands - one is a three piece where I'm able to go from rythm to lead with my volume knob, but because I'm the only guitarist in the band, the very minor jump in volume works. The other is a bigger band where I'm not really cutting through at all. I sometime use a tube screamer in front of the RAT as a boost, tube screamer low gain and RAT gain at about 10:00. That gets me more distortion, no volume boost, but I love the feel and sustain I get from that setup. Basically, I want that, but with a volume boost.

Placing the tube screamer after the rat is not at all the same, but It gets me above the mix and cuts through, but I don't like the feel and sound. I've been using an mxr micro booster after the rat, and that certainly fattens it up and jumps out in the mix, but I'm not getting that added sustain and touch sensitivity as if the boost was before the rat. And, I just don't have enough room on my board to use a boost before and after the rat. I think I may be going about this the wrong way. So, I was thinking a compressor, maybe with a clean blend that placed after my rat could give me the slight volume boost I need along with some added sustain without adding more distortion?
Following up on my recommendation above (and anothetr someone else cited)

i just tossed my rat clone and yellow comp on the board -i have a BD as apart of my angrydriver as well.

I ran the rat at 9 oclock gain for low, and 3 oclock for medium - high gain

the blues driver was nice into the rat with the rat at low gain. It was mushy and muddy at high gain.

the blues driver was too muddy after the rat for my tastes in both gain positions

the yellow comp in front of the rat at low gain gave a slight volume boost and added brightness

Yellow comp before higher gain rat setting didnt do anything beneficial

yellow comp afterwards was good in both low and high gain settings. Volume went up and brightness went up with the comp eq turned toward treble

When the rat was high gain the yellow comps eq had to be turned to 3 oclock and made for a very bright tone (for a rat) and as i surmised it could be used for a solo but definitely not rhythm

my assumption is i should have done the rat gain at noon and it would likely be a better balance tonally in that regard.

B8E5F5D7-41E8-4C39-8BB7-4AC311DF047A.jpeg
 

89strat

Member
Messages
1,201
Ok, I picked up a mxr mini booster, musky golden horse Klonr, and a mooer yellow comp and placed them after my rat and before my delay, just to give me an idea of what direction to go in. The mxr with the internal gain low or completely down and adds a big volume clean boost, but not much else. It is an excellent clean boost, and not unlike the micro amp which I’ve used before. The golden horse sounded good on its own but I didn’t like it after the rat, It was just too coloring. But I’d like to try a better version of this like the tumnus or sugar drive. Finally I tried the yellow comp. for boosting my leads I think this sounded and felt the best. A little added compression and volume without taking away the sizzle plus adding a little fatness worked out great. So I think that I should be looking more at compressors as a solo boost, and although I’m liking this yellow comp, I wonder if the Ego or SP would work better with their clean blend features.
 




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