Need Speaker Recommendations

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by jamiemlawson, Feb 20, 2012.

  1. jamiemlawson

    jamiemlawson Member

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    Hello Everybody this is my first post. I just bought a 1965 Fender Showman that was refinished and it looks amazing. I also bought a slightly used Avatar 212" cabinet loaded with Hellatone 30W(G12H30) and 60W(Vintage 30) which are 30 watt and 60 watt speakers respectively. The problem is that the Fender Showman is 85 watts RMS and the speakers aren't loud enough to handle the amp. I can play through them but they break up even before half way on the amps volume and I'm pretty sure I'd blow them if I cranked up the volume.

    I've been told I need speakers rated at roughly 75 watts or higher if I want to get a decent clean tone which is what I'm aiming for but I also am buying a Catalinbread Dirty Little Secret which is a "plexi" styled pedal that has wicked Marshall sounding overdrive so I need speakers that can do Fender Cleans AND Marshall Distortions as well as they can considering they'll be tackling both tones. Please don't tell me this is impossible, I'm aware that I probably can only choose one tone if I want to get an accurate portrayal of that tone from the speakers but if you could recommend a happy medium that would be much appreciated. Also if I can find a digital camera I'll post pics. Thanks for your suggestions.
     
  2. clintb

    clintb Member

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    My favorite clean/dirty speaker that I've tried so far is the WGS Blackhawk HP. It is a 100-watt speaker so power handling is no problem.

    To quote myself from another post I made:
    "I think of the Blackhawk HP as a clean speaker with just enough British flavor to make it sound good with distortion."

    It has chimey cleans and singing distortion. Some describe it as "vocal" mids. There is plenty of bass and it is a tight bass.

    One speaker I would avoid is the Weber California (with aluminum dome). I have that in my Twin Reverb. It's a great speaker for clean tones, but overdrive/distortion just sounds kind of "flat" and 2-dimensional.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2012
  3. jamiemlawson

    jamiemlawson Member

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    Are you pretty experienced with different speakers? I e-mailed Weber as well as WGS and I'm still waiting for a response from WGS but Weber got back to me and mentioned their "Chicago" speaker which is supposed to handle both quite well, what's your take on that?

    To everybody else, input please! Or failing that a link to previous threads pertaining to similar information, I'm sure there are many.
     
  4. clintb

    clintb Member

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    I'm probably not as experienced as others on this forum, but I have been through a bunch of speakers:

    Fender Utah speaker that came in my used Twin Reverb
    Weber California
    Crate Speakers (Eminence GB12)
    Mesa Black Shadow(MC-90)
    Celestion Vintage 30
    Celestion G12H30 70th Anniversary
    Reverend All-Tone
    Eminence Tonespotter
    WGS Veteran 30
    WGS ET-65
    WGS Blackhawk HP
    Eminence Private Jack
    Pure 64 Silver Series II
    Scumback (can't remember the model# offhand)

    I've never tried the Weber "Chicago" speakers, but I was thinking about them as a possible replacement for the the Weber "California" speakers in my Twin Reverb.

    How do you know your speakers are distorting and not the amp?
    Have you ever tried the head with another speaker cabinet to see if you still have a distorted tone?
    A Showman should have plenty of headroom for a typical bar gig, but perhaps your amp is faulty.
    To be honest I don't think I've ever heard speaker distortion.

    How loud do you play?
    I doubt you'll ever be playing at 85 watts of power. So I don't think you have to worry about the power handling of your speakers.
    I used to gig with a 15-watt amp with a Vintage 30 speaker and it was plenty loud with clean head room.
    When I gigged with my Twin Reverb (basically a Dual Showman Reverb in a combo format), I never turned my amp above "2".
     
  5. solitaire

    solitaire Senior Member

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    You want British mids for that good distorted tone, yet definition and presence for cleans? Check out the Fane Medusa 150C - that's the cast frame version. Think JBL meets V30 with an alnico like treble.
     
  6. Stu Blue

    Stu Blue Member

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    It's the G12H30 that's at risk. The booteek guys favour the Celestion Classic Lead 80 (CL80) for that clean plus Marshall thing. EVs will do it if you got the price.
     
  7. jamiemlawson

    jamiemlawson Member

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    What are 'EV's'? I'm willing to spend decent money as long as I get the versatility in tone I'm looking for.
     
  8. Stu Blue

    Stu Blue Member

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    :huh Electro-Voice speakers... EVM12L ...like wot Bonnamassa uses. http://www.electrovoice.com/family.php?id=72 It's well worth trying one CL80 instead of the G12H30 first though.
     
  9. IceTre

    IceTre Supporting Member

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    If I'm not mistaken--somebody slap me if I'm wrong-- the speakers share the load, so 30W+60W=90W which means an 85W amp won't blow the speakers. But you are probably getting speaker distortion on the G12H30. Me, I like to get speakers that are rated just above the amp power; I like to push the speakers into distortion. But if you don't like that, one quick and easy fix would be to replace the G12H30 with another Vintage 30. That gives you two 60W speakers for a total of 120W, more than enough for your 85W amp. And Vintage 30's are good all-around speakers. You can buy one for $100 from Avatar, so it's a fairly cheap experiment. Beyond Celestion there's Jensen, Eminence, Scumback, Tone Tubby, Weber... other guys will have to make those recommendations. Good luck and have fun with this!
     
  10. Stu Blue

    Stu Blue Member

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    Sorry but consider yourself slapped... the speakers share the load, which means in a 2x12 cab they each see half the amp's watts... the lower rated speaker still limits the cab 2x30=60watts max (ie 30+60= still 60watts). Also amps are rated at their clean (onset of clipping) and they will produce at least 50% more maxed dirty ie 85watts clean will be at least 120/130 watts max (if not more)...hence the notion of 2x75watt speakers as minimum.
     
  11. clintb

    clintb Member

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    I was just thinking to myself, how much power goes through each speaker?
    I was originally assuming like you that 30W + 60W = 90W which is bigger than 85 watts, so we're OK.

    But then I started doing calculations:

    Here is what I was thinking. Somebody tell me if I'm wrong.

    Assuming the speakers are wired in parallel.
    Rule: The voltage is the same across each branch in a parallel circuit.
    So the voltage across both speakers is the same.

    I'm assuming both speakers have the same resistance.

    Rule: Current is voltage / resistance.
    Since the voltage across both is the same and the resistance is the same, then the current must be the same.

    Rule: current splits up among each branch in the parallel circuit.

    Now I don't know what that current is, but I do know it will be split evenly among the two speakers since each branch has the same voltage and resistance.

    Rule: Power is voltage * current.

    Since the voltage and current across both speakers is the same, then the power across both speakers is the same.

    So it appears the 30-watt limit of the G12H30 is the limiting factor of how much power you can use.

    Since the power is split evenly among the speakers and 30watt is the limit of the G12H30, can we conclude that the highest amp power this setup can handle is 2 * 30 = 60 watts?

    How Loud?
    My next question is, how loud is 30 watts through a G12H30 speaker?
    Well, the G12H30 has a sound pressure level of 100db at 1 meter (assuming they are talking about 1000Hz frequency). Well, that's as loud as a jack hammer.

    But sound drops off with distance. The speaker is 100db at 1 meter, but how much is it at 10 meters?

    How many extra decibels do you need at 1 meter to make it 100db at 10 meters?

    How much extra power does it take to reach that decibel level?

    All I know is that I gigged with a 15-watt amp with a Vintage 30 speaker (which has same efficiency) and I was plenty loud. I even used to play it on the 6-watt setting and it was loud enough. Or at least it was loud enough for the stage. The PA was used to amplify the sound for the audience.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2012
  12. clintb

    clintb Member

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    Ooops. I guess Stu Blue beat me to the answer about power distribution across speakers.

    But I still have the question about how much power we are actually using.

    I remember the user manual for the Reverend Hellhound said the amp was a 60-watt amp but it only came with a 50-watt speaker. The manual says that was OK as long as you didn't really crank it. So I think that supports my assertion that we probably aren't using as many watts as we think we are to get the volume we want.
     
  13. IceTre

    IceTre Supporting Member

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    Stu and Clint, thanks for the slap, I deserved it, wasn't thinking. Yes, the voltage and current through both speakers will be the same, so the power dissipated by each will be the same. If the amp is putting out 85W, then that's 42.5W per speaker, so that wonderful G12H30 will be blown.

    As for whether the amp wattage rating means before clipping, that depends on the amp. For example, I have two so-called "50W" Marshalls. One, a 1989 JCM800, is rated for 50W before clipping. The other, a 2007 Vintage Modern 2266, is rated for for 50W max--everything dimed. You can hear the difference--the 2204 is WAY louder than the 2266. I don't know how Jamie's old Fender Showman is rated; my guess would be 85W before clipping. So he probably needs two speakers each of which are rated at least 50W. Two Vintage 30's (60W speakers) would work. But there may be better choices.

    Sorry to digress on your thread, Jamie. Good luck with your search!
     
  14. jamiemlawson

    jamiemlawson Member

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    so I guess I can try another V30 and you guys think this is a good all around speaker?
     
  15. ylo

    ylo Member

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    I think it boils down to what style music you play, clean or heavily distorted.

    If you like clean guitar, it is hard to beat a couple of JBL D120s, Weber California / Al dome, or Weber Neos / Al dome. However, these speakers can sound too bright in a Twin if you like distorted ("high gain" in guitar player parlance) tones.

    For distorted tones many players seem to prefer a darker speaker such as Eminence RW&B, or an even darker speaker to get rid of fizz. IMHO the Celestion CL80 / CL90 are similar to the RW&B, better for distorted sounds than clean sounds.

    The Vintage 30 is a little brighter than the CL80, and might be a good compromise. I have NOT heard the Weber Chicago, but this apparently is a little darker than the California.

    Too many speakers, too little time and money to try them all!
     
  16. speedemon

    speedemon Member

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    Hmm, tried a lot of speakers myself too. Weber has a lot of great options at very reasonable cost, and the speakers are great. I have never played a WGS, but have yet to see anything bad about them posted. If your wallet can handle it, the Fane speakers are great, and Scumback makes amazing celestion type speakers that can handle high wattage if you like. If you need to have a V30, then you need to have it, to my ears nothing else sounds like it.

    If you want the vintage sparkly cleans, Weber and Scumback have high wattage alnico speakers, which should suit you nicely. If you want USA dist. get a USA type speaker et al.
     
  17. freaksho

    freaksho Member

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    yeah it's good all around but might not give the best cleans, though not too bad really. i had a 2x12 with V30's for a while and had pretty nice cleans with my Shiva. but then again this is a Fender you're talking about so i think you'd be better off with a bit more chime than a 2xV30 arrangement can give you.

    tell me something: how do you like the V30/H30 combo you have in there now? cuz actually that's a very popular and versatile mix, and one that i think would give you the best shot of getting great cleans and great classic crunch. the G12H30 really adds some nice top end chime for cleans yet gives up very nice smooth classic OD tones too. but since it's the limiting factor for your power rating you gotta dump it. that's the bad news. the good news is that since it's such a classic speaker there are many speaker makers that make clones of it, and at much higher watt ratings. two off the top of my head are

    WGS Reaper HP (50W)
    Scumback H75 (choice of 30W, 65W or 100W)


    fwiw i took one V30 out of my 212 cab and put a Reaper HP in it's place. i love it and it's a 100W cab.
     
  18. clintb

    clintb Member

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    Yes, I guess it is an all around good speaker. I just think it's kind of harsh on the high end. I actually like the WGS Veteran 30 better since it tames the highs. But some think it is too dark. But with a Fender Showman, I would think you've got plenty of brightness on tap.

    Several years ago, Reverend All-Tone speakers were getting rave reviews as a replacement speaker in Fender amps. They are supposed be good for both clean and dirty tones. Reverend is out of the amp and speaker business, but you can still read a description of the product on their website:
    http://www.reverendguitars.com/reverend/archive/amps_etc/alltone_speakers.html

    If you can't find an All-Tone, I've read that the Weber Signature Series Ceramic 12B is pretty much the same thing:
    https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/ (click the "Signature Series" link on the left side menu)
    It is relatively cheap at $50.
     
  19. jamiemlawson

    jamiemlawson Member

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    Hey I'm not really content with the sound I'm getting now because I can't get the speakers to stay clean when I turn the volume knob past 11 o'clock(volume 4). I want speakers that literally don't distort at all and I want all the distortion coming from pedals.
     
  20. tritone 6

    tritone 6 Silver Supporting Member

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    Eminence Swamp Thang & Wizard
     

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