Need [want] a Bogner! Help me decide... (long post)

[thiscalltoarms]

I've been gigging locally on my Budda SD18 1x12 for almost straight years now- occasionally in stereo setups (first with an Orange, than a Vox AC15, lately its a Dr Z Maz Jr NR). This march/april my band is heading out on our first national tour since a few member and stylistic changes. Our new record will be dropping around the same time.

Enter the dilemma-

As a touring musician, I am nervous about running into issues at venues that don't mic the amps up. Most of the time the Budda 1x12 with my Z 2x10 extension more than measures up, but on those rare occasions I want a backup (also, who tours without a backup!?) I am thinking about 30w is probably right and I am really digging the Bogner stuff (I've wanted one for a long time). I play ambient post-rock: sigur ros, explosions in the sky, circa survive all come to mind.

I played a shiva a few years ago and I was impressed by everything about it except the volume levels (obscenely loud to my ear/hands). Earlier today I plugged into a Duende (6v6) and I think I liked the clean tone and verb BETTER than the Shiva (gain around 10 oclock, volume between 1-3oclock). However, the volume was definitely not enough for me and the dirty seemed too jagged for me compared to the shiva/budda. I also wished I could control the mids more on the drive channel (I heard Bogner does a mod for this?)

Can anyone directly compare the cleans, verb, and dirtys between the Duende (6L6 probably) and the Shiva? Help me decide which one!

 

[radiohead]

here's my quick review of the 6L6 Duende.. just got it last week.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/647082

i quickly touched up on the gain sounds vs the Shiva on there. as far as cleans go.. it depends on the headroom you're looking for.. the 30 watts is enough for my needs at the moment (with a pretty heavy handed drummer). the clean on both amps are really good, so you can't go wrong with either.

 

[lespaul6]

What about an Ecstasy 101b for clean crunch and lead its great.

 

[Kleio]

I don't know if it's what you're looking for, but in my opinion the 30 watt Metropolis is the best amp Bogner makes. I used to use a Shiva and it was way too loud for most situations. The Metropolis is much more manageable, plus it has beautiful reverb, great blackface cleans and fabulous overdrive sounds.

 

[Ryan]

I dig the 30 watt Duende.

 

[thiscalltoarms]

christmas bump

 

[Ricker]

What about an Ecstasy 101b for clean crunch and lead its great.

I think so aswell..........
I have a budda sd18 and an Sd80......
alos used to own a Shiva and I can tell you that the 101b lounds better than all of them at lower volumes.........
Also can kill small furry creatures if you want it too....

Best Bogner

R

 

[splatt]

i think my favorite bogner, to date,
has gotta be the new "goldfinger".

dt / spltrcl

 

[radiohead]

i think my favorite bogner, to date,
has gotta be the new "goldfinger".

dt / spltrcl

the Goldfinger's interesting.. I can't wait to try it out.. hopefully Reinhold gets them out by January

 

[thiscalltoarms]

no one out there has an opinion on clean vs clean and dirty vs dirty between duende and shiva?

 

[gtrs]

no one out there has an opinion on clean vs clean and dirty vs dirty between duende and shiva?

I liked most everything about both amps. I owned a 6L6 Shiva, 18 watt Deunde and XTC 101B all at the same time.
I also owned a EL-34 Shiva for quite a while too.
I still think I liked the Duende the best:

You can push the Duende's output section without going deaf.
The clean channel has the most Fender kinda vibe out of all the Bogners.
With efficient speakers it can be plenty loud.
The verb is excellent, as is the trem.
The FX Loop doesn't rob tone.

It's a very hard amp to beat.

The Shiva generally sounds a bit "bigger" but with the right speakers I found my Duende could sound equally as large. It depends on your setup.

The OD on the Deunde sounded slightly more saturated to me. Both amps can have smooth or jagged OD depending on how they are set. But remember, the output section comes into play much sooner with the Duende so you can do a lot with it at more reasonable volumes. For me, that's a big plus.

I've read that the Push/Pull gain can be foot switchable as well as a mid knob added to the amp. I would do that in a heart beat if I were to get another Duende, which I probably will.

PM me if you want to talk about speakers and cabs. I had a great setup for mine that I think would work perfectly for what your trying to do. And it was a lite, easy to carry rig that didn't take up any more room onstage than a 1x12 combo.

 

[radiohead]

no one out there has an opinion on clean vs clean and dirty vs dirty between duende and shiva?

you're close enough to NYC.. my opinion is that you should take the commute to Rudy's Music and try both out, since buying an amp of this price is a very big decision. they have a Duende SM, 1x12 and 2x12 closed back, and 20th Anny Shivas there. it really is the only way you can determine which is more suited for your playing.

 

[splatt]

imo:
you might really wanna to wait, in order to try a goldfinger.
sounds amazing, 3 channels, unusually remarkable reverb, normal &/or "post-" EQ,
choice of 2 or 4 6v6's, on the fly.
i've played it through 2 bogner 2x12 cabs, one open & one closed, together.
very satisfying; tough, vocal, newschool vintagey high-gain (if ya like),
great cleans & dirties, great responsivity..... with real character.

my fryette memphis, which could/may-/might be a potentially excellent choice for you,
is somewhat similarly rubbery, under the fingers,
but isn't quite spongy-feeling as the goldfinger seems to be.

dt / spltrcl

 

[radiohead]

hey splatt, where did you get to play the goldfinger? did you get to try out the combo as well?

 

[ChicagoFraize]

I am also in the market for a new amp and am considering duende or the upcoming goldfinger. I e-mailed Bogner for info on the Goldfinger this week (Christmas). They said the amp s/b out in 1-2 months, and will be a TWO channel.

Interesting that they changed it back to 2 channel from 3. Regardless, the clips by Splatt and others on the LA amp show are killer.

CF

 

[vivagold]

I've used my Duende on tour with a fairly loud drummer and only needed it in the monitors once. I prefer the clean channel with OD pedals to the OD channel, but I did get some nice tones mixing the two channels. The reverb and the trem are also great. Definitely the most Fendery Bogner. I like a lot!!

 

[thiscalltoarms]

update- took Radiohead's advice and since I am visiting my parents in New Jersey this week, I took the day to "bring my mom and wife to see the tree" but also stopped in at Rudy's Music around the corner from Rockerfeller center. They had 4 Shivas:
-Shiva EL34 1x12 combo
-Shiva EL34 head with verb into Bogner 4x12
-Shiva 6L6 2x12 combo
-Shiva Anniversary with 2x12 combo

After about an hour of my mom sitting playing tetris on my phone in the next room over (glass doors shut to make it less "loud") and my wife making suggestions as to which one sounded the best and had the best reverb, I came to the following conclusions:

1. the best lead tone bar-none came from the 20th Ann Shiva gain channel, but cleans without reverb are not really interesting to me on an amp in this price range, which rules that one out for a gigging guitar (I'd love to record through one though!).

2. according to my wife (and I think I agree)- the best clean tones came from the EL34 shivas- much fuller throughout instead of the over emphasized lows of the 6L6. To fully test this hypothesis I played the el34 head through the 6l6 2x12 cab to make sure it wasn't the speaker difference. while there was a significant difference between 2x12 and 1x12 cabs with el34 tubes, i actually found that in either case my wife prefered the mids on el34 design over the 6L6 design.

3. as expected- with all knobs consistent across the amps on the gain channel- the 6L6 had a more modern tonality that made me want big power chords due to the extra low push. the el34 made me more interested in crunchy tighter chord structures and formations.

4. the master volume was incredibly useful, and i found that it would work well on the majority of stages although with the master past noon the dirt did get better as it went.

They also had a Duende S/M there that was right next to the two shivas () and an Uber and a few XTCs as well. The clean on the XTC just wasn't doing it for me. The S/M thing is cool, but not something I'd use. However, I did compare the 1x12 el34 shiva and the 1x12 Duende (6v6) and found the reverb much better on the Duende compared to the Shiva. however the lead tone still wasn't quite what I was looking for and keeping the gain on the Duende clean channel down really lowered the amount of volume I could get out of it (definitely not enough to keep up with my drummer).

Moral of the story- I think I want both. If I ever sell off my Dr Z Maz Jr NR, I think the Bogner Duende would be a great option to fill that medium to lower wattage clean amp that can do a hip dirty tone at times. The shiva clean was gorgeous as well but the reverb didn't get anywhere near as big as the Duende (bummer). The Duende could cop a similar mojo to the El34 on the gain channels for crunch work (not as well for leads due to lack of mids knob). If I had to buy one it'd be the EL34 Shiva head or 1x12 combo, although I'd love to find a Duende 30w head one day for recording and jams...

One thing I didn't check is how the shiva vs duende take overdrive pedals?

 

[small axe]

i have a shiva 6l6 1x12 combo so i'll tell u about it retubed it all with nos tubes for no reason....the clean is very clean and with the right guitar and settings it sparkles and rips thru some nice tone....the 2nd channel is very loud and very edgey, if thats a word, and can be crazy...the tone still continues to be excellent...if you step on boost...forget about it...it will shake the room.....the bass is excellent. the treble sounds like it should and the mids are for wimps....the reverb sucks some power out of the sound or tone but is very classy....i dont know too much about the duende but i know its a nice amp...hope this helps

 

[radiohead]

glad you got to check out some bogners.. did lucas at rudy's help you out? the guys at tonemerchants could probably get what you're looking for also.. rob mentioned that they can get a modded Duende to have EL34s.. should give you about 40 or so watts of power. they can also have it with the high gain mod, global mid control, and footswitchable gain boost added

 

[Ken]

Could you give me an idea of the differences between the Shiva EL34 head vs the Shiva Anniversary model on the Overdrive channel? Isn't there a switch on the Anniversary model that lets you go from Mid-lows to Mid-highs?