Neil Young's Rig (Herzog)...Tone Quest Report question.

Discussion in 'Amps/Cabs Tech Corner: Amplifier, Cab & Speakers' started by LustandFury, Feb 26, 2009.

  1. LustandFury

    LustandFury Member

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    Larry Cragg gives some insight to Neil's rig in the Tone Quest Report feature on Neil Young. I'm interested in a specific part of the article where he says:

    TQR: But you weren’t slaving the Deluxe…

    Cragg: Definitely not. We pad down the speaker out and run that into the Magnatone and the Baldwin Exterminator, which is two 15’s, two 12’s and two 8’s. We’re not slaving it in the traditional way, and what you’re hearing are the 6L6’s in the Deluxe.


    Full Article: http://www.tonequest.com/pdf_pubs/samples/TQRSep06_Proof.pdf

    When he says "pad down the speaker out" is this the same concept as the Garnet Herzog (had one and sold it and have regretted it ever since)? Basically a Garnet Gnome (Champ) circuit with a resistor at the speaker out that drops it to a line level that can then be run into the guitar input of a clean and more powerful amplifier? That way you get all the juice of a full tilt low wattage amp at huge volume. Any ideas???

    Here's another quote from another article:

    Cragg: I have fans pumping a lot of air into the back of the Deluxe, since we rebiased the amp to use 6L6s. We have the speaker there, plus the extension speaker output, which has been significantly padded down with a volume knob. the signal then goes into Magnatone 280 stereo vibrato-the Lonnie Mack amp-with two 12s.


    http://www.thrasherswheat.org/friends/amps.htm
     
  2. phsyconoodler

    phsyconoodler Member

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    What is it you want to know?It's a simple thing to 'pad down' the output of an amp using either a dummy load to disable the amp's internal speaker and then use a simple voltage divider to drop the output down to line level so you can insert that into the input of another amp.
    If you think of a distortion or boost pedal as an amplifier,then it gets fed into the input of another amp,you get the idea.
    The Herzog had an extra 12AX7 to add tons of gain to an amp.A simple champ will do.Depends on what sound you want.
    The idea of the actual distorted output of a power amp driving the preamp of another larger amp is kind of cool,but it isn't the world's best tone.Well maybe for Mr Bachman.each to their own.
     
  3. LustandFury

    LustandFury Member

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    I guess my question is, is Neil using his Deluxe in the same way a Herzog is used? If he was just using the Deluxe's natural tone then why not just mic the deluxe? It sounds like he uses it to drive the front end of an otherwise clean amp but maybe I'm wrong. I loved the sound of the Herzog into a clean amp...the distortion/fuzz was better then any pedal I've ever played through by a long shot and you could get very slight overdrive to a very Neil Young exploding amp type sound with it so I'm thinking of making my own. I'm wondering why this isn't done more as well. It doesn't seem very common. I know Gordy Johnson from Big Sugar/Grady does the same thing using a Herzog and either a Twin or Ampeg.
     
  4. phsyconoodler

    phsyconoodler Member

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    Backline companies hate Gordy Johnson because he blows up marshalls with his Herzog.
    It definitely is a big fat sound,but you need to use some discretion when using it.
    I do repairs for a local backline company and they complain when Gordy comes to town!
    Build a champ and pad the output with a voltage divider to drop the output to line level and you are set.
    The biggest reason why many people don't do it is the cost.
    The sound you here when driving a clean amp is basically the preamp of the Herzog,but it is colored by the preamp of the power amp so it's not a real representation of the Deluxe when you are talking about Neil Young.I would simply use a line out on the Deluxe and pipe the sound into the PA system.That way you can mix it in the monitors too.People do things the way they please and whatever they end up with is fine.
     
  5. LustandFury

    LustandFury Member

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    Much appreciated. Thanks for all the info!
     
  6. LustandFury

    LustandFury Member

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    One more question is how different is this then running a JMP-1 or similar preamp into the front end of a clean amp??
     
  7. Old Black

    Old Black Member

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    I'm pretty sure Larry put a resistor on the external speaker jack of the 5e3. Gerald Weber describes this mod in one of his books. I have a 5e3 that is connected to my Magnatone 280 in a similar fashion. Works great.
     
  8. SeanOLeary

    SeanOLeary Member

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    @Old Black... what's the name of Gerald Weber's book that you refer to. There are three on amazon !! Thanks
     
  9. Rob s

    Rob s Member

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    I have recorded neil in the studio.
    it was just the tweed deluxe with 6l6's.
    It sure did sound like neil.
     
  10. cbm

    cbm Silver Supporting Member

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    Power amp distortion sounds different from preamp distortion.
     
  11. wyatt

    wyatt Member

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    Pretty sure it's in this one...

    http://www.amazon.com/Desktop-Reference-Vintage-Guitar-Amps/dp/0964106000

    It's the only one I read and I do remember a reference to something similar. IIRC, most of the "tricks and tips" were republished from his magazine columns.
     
  12. drbob1

    drbob1 Silver Supporting Member

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    The simplest way to see if you like this sound is to get a direct box that allows amp level inputs (Peavey, Hosa etc). Plug the amp into that and the speaker into the parallel jack, then send the output to your clean amp. If you like it, then build a voltage divider and "line out" jack into the back of your amp.
     
  13. Rockinrob86

    Rockinrob86 Member

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    I was googling and came across this, thought I would add the schematic for other googlers:
    [​IMG]

    I've added this to a few of my small tube amps. It works great! I really love it on a small supro I have - I just plug the input into one of a couple big amps and it sounds insane! Exactly like you would imagine a cranked up supro into an Ampeg V4 would sound!

    It makes that small amp tone gigable
     
    Baxtercat likes this.
  14. Steppin' Wolfe

    Steppin' Wolfe Member

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    IMho, it is best to take that line out to a power amp...not to another preamp situation. All that is really needed is to amplify that signal of the entire circuit of the first amp IT is not necessary and probably not technically advisable to re-preamp that line out signal. Whatever they do for N. Young's amp situation might be something that someone of lesser means would want to afford. His tech is probably on a 'retainer'. LOL
    IF it is run into the preamp of another larger amp, it would be best not to push that larger amp's preamp hard.
     
  15. gtrnstuff

    gtrnstuff Member

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    Terry Kath used to run a tube Bogen PA head into a Showman or other big amp, IIRC.
    In jr. high I did it with a Wollensak tube tape recorder set to "PA" mode into a #2 input on my SFSR.
    Interesting, pretty ragged. I managed not to blow anything up, even though I think I just used the speaker out of the Wollensak.
    Serious impedance mismatch ;)
     
  16. MKB

    MKB Silver Supporting Member

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    Just a guess, but perhaps Neil assembled his rig back in the days when micing small amps live was not as prevalent as today, also his rig might be made of the limited amount of gear he could put together in the seventies. Once he found his tone, he stuck with the rig as it was. One could argue that he could profile the rig with a Kemper and just use that, but Neil is probably too old school for such things.
     
  17. Rockinrob86

    Rockinrob86 Member

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    This works great into an amp - it is a voltage divider circuit, if you use the right resistor values it will not blow anything up. A line out will always sound crappy until it hits a speaker, or at the least speaker emulation. A speaker is the final EQ filter on your tone!

    The interesting part of this is how the two amps interact, it works out somewhat like using a fuzz or colorful dirt pedal into an overdriving amp if you really crank the second amp. I personally like it to accentuate the smaller amp sound and add some of that "bigger amp transformer" sound into the small amp mix.
     
  18. kinmike

    kinmike Supporting Member

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    The V4 has a jack in back for "Ext. Amp" and says 10k ohms. Is that for the V4 pre-amp to go to an external amp or an external pre-amp to go to the V4 power amp?

    Mike
     
  19. pdf64

    pdf64 Member

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  20. Rockinrob86

    Rockinrob86 Member

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    The V4 has a preamp out jack - not sure if you were just asking about this, but I plug the small amps into the v4 sometimes in the front like normal and it works great. I've used the preamp out as a sort of DI into my recording rig for bass, and that works pretty well too, but I prefer to have a separate line without the preamp coloration if possible.
     

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