New speaker is louder than the old one.

Gaucho1

Member
Messages
4
I have an Orange pcp212 closed back and replaced one of the V30s with a new Creamback H75 8ohm. The cab is 16 ohm and the other speaker is also 8ohm and they are wired in serial. The new H75 is noticeably louder than the V30. I just pulled the other V30 and popped the H75 in and the cables are clips. I checked and both speakers are moving and the connections look good. Is this just perception due to the difference in frequency in the two speakers? Are new speakers louder? Thanks for any advice. They sound great but the difference is driving me nuts and I want the full sound of the V30.
 

fiveightandten

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,469
Both speakers are 8 ohm, right?

The sensitivity rating on both speakers is the same. Their volumes should be about the same. But the Creamback is brighter so you may perceive it as being louder. The V30 has more midrange so it cuts in a mix no problem.
 

Gaucho1

Member
Messages
4
Thanks. Yes. they are both 8ohm. I will keep playing and see if I get used to it. Maybe putting the other V30 in and just making sure it's not that v30.
 

Moderato

Member
Messages
4,782
ohms and wattage doesnt account for speaker output/volume, you can find a 25/30w 16ohm speaker that is louder than a 75-80w 8ohm one, Celestion, for example, used to have a great site where you could find the db for each speaker (not trusting current one).. another factor that must be considered is speaker base tone, one full of treble (or high mids) is perceived as louder than a very bassy one, mixing different speakers for live sound is very difficult.
Im a celestion guy but used to be after EVM12Ls, bought some from 3 periods (early 80s, late 80s and recent ones, strangely all different), I once tried the best early 80s one with a chinese 8ohm Classic Lead 80 and the Celestion overpowered it easily (it was very surprising to me), tried also some of the other evms I had but same results despite the evm is 100db and the celestion is 99db (1db is not a little).
 
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Tootone

Member
Messages
6,643
My 2c...

don't mix speaker pairs in a cab.

The myth that mixed speakers sound better is a myth.

It's OK if you are micing both speakers, and then mixing them at the desk. Otherwise... it's just BS.
 

VICOwner

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,685
I thought a lot of people mixed speakers in 2x12 and 4x12 cabinets. I’m not doing it right now but when I had only one 4x12 cabinet, I swapped the top v30’s for Scumback m75 65’s in my 1960av cabinet and liked the results. Now I have 2 4x12 cabinets and have all m75 65’s in the A cab and h75 65’s in the B cab. I service a bit of stuff and the Fender guys have mixed speakers in their twins and supers most of the time. I thought the mix was to help expand the sound. Now, of course you can hear the different speakers contributions when up close but at 10-12 feet away they blend together to me. I worked on a Marshall jvm410c and Marshall mixed speakers from the factory. I think it’s important to have speakers with really close efficiency rating so that one doesn’t easily produce more volume than the other but frequency response mixing should be an asset to the cabinet if that’s your intention.
 

Scumback Speakers

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
11,112
My 2c...

don't mix speaker pairs in a cab.

The myth that mixed speakers sound better is a myth.

It's OK if you are micing both speakers, and then mixing them at the desk. Otherwise... it's just BS.
Opinions vary. I've sold at least 4-500 M75/H75 Scumback mixes for 212 and 412 cabs in the last 19 years. Thanks to Big Mike and Chet Feathers for "FU M&H" tone! LOL
 

Tootone

Member
Messages
6,643
Opinions vary. I've sold at least 4-500 M75/H75 Scumback mixes for 212 and 412 cabs in the last 19 years. Thanks to Big Mike and Chet Feathers for "FU M&H" tone! LOL

400-500 puzzled customers?

There's plenty of posts like this on TGP.

Admittedly, there are some cases where it works. Happy Accidents? Seems 4x12 have better results with a 2 + 2 mix.

If it were me, I'd swap them out in pairs.
 

SReynolds

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,760
My 2c...

don't mix speaker pairs in a cab.

The myth that mixed speakers sound better is a myth.

It's OK if you are micing both speakers, and then mixing them at the desk. Otherwise... it's just BS.

Well mixing a pair of Alnico Creams and a pair of Creamback H75s is the sweetest BS I've heard in my 40+ years of playing. As well as 2 V30s and 2 Greenbacks.
 

Tootone

Member
Messages
6,643
mixing a pair

Bearing in mind, this post is about 2 different speakers in a pair.

Well I'm nothing if I'm not controversial. There are dudes who swear their speakers sound better with the cone slashed. Subjective I guess.

General wisdom says swap speakers "as a pair". But rules are there to be broken, although it can be a pretty expensive hobby. I'm sure that somewhere, there are two dissimilar speakers that do work well together, good luck finding them.

See my next post after the one you jumped on.
 

shallbe

Deputy Plankspanker
Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
12,718
Bearing in mind, this post is about 2 different speakers in a pair.

Well I'm nothing if I'm not controversial. There are dudes who swear their speakers sound better with the cone slashed. Subjective I guess.

General wisdom says swap speakers "as a pair". But rules are there to be broken, although it can be a pretty expensive hobby. I'm sure that somewhere, there are two dissimilar speakers that do work well together, good luck finding them.

See my next post after the one you jumped on.
Matchless 2x12 cabs and combo cabs are shipped with mixed speakers. They have always done this. It has worked well for them and their customers since the early 90’s.

I like mixing a ceramic and an Alnico speaker in a 2x12 cab. For over 15 years, my favorite cab has a Red Fang/C-Rex mix.
 

Tootone

Member
Messages
6,643
If I had enough money and time, I'd buy all the stock popular 12" speakers, a Mozilla 2x12 cab, a few good amps, some tools, and hire out a "good sounding" studio, and a panel of professional producers (Tim Pierce would probably be high on the list).

Then, I would try all possible combinations, get the pro's to provide objective feedback, and make scientific notes on results. I would publish all results with in a "Best to Worst" descending list, with objective commentary on each step.

This would produce a Bell Curve. There would be a small number of "Excellent" pairings. There would be a high number of "average" nothing special pairings. There would be a low number of "disastrous" pairings.

One has to assume that pairing two identical speakers in the same cab produces "great" results, otherwise, manufacturers wouldn't do it.

So, two mixed speakers providing "great" results doesn't really offer anything over "matched" speakers.

What we're after is that small percentage of "Excellent" results. But what are they?

There's thousands of posts across the Web claiming Excellent results when mixing two different speakers. Are we to believe everyone? Or should we just believe you? Because you obviously do know what you're talking about.

I'll tell you what works for me, 2x Celestion Blue Alnicos in my AC30. I've heard you can do better, but good is good enough for me. It's like that old saying, a bird in the hand and all that. That might change if I had unlimited sums of money (rich parents) that I could gamble away on random gear purchases.

But don't mind me. Please enjoy your mismatched speakers.
 

Guyotron

Member
Messages
363
If you're micing the speaker, then having different but complimentary speakers in an enclosure allows different tones. Like switching IRs in the mix. One mic, one tone or the other one. Two mics, great or excellent tone. I'm playing with that very thing at the moment. I have a Marshall 2X12 combo sitting on an Orange 2X12 closed back cab. I swapped one speaker from the combo and the cabinet. Up top, I have one Marshall branded Celestion G12 Heritage and one Celestion V30, and the same pair in the cabinet. With one mic, I now have four possible tones depending on the speaker and open or closed back configuration.
 

fyler

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,486
i have mismatched speakers in all of my multi-speaker cabs, but it's a result of "whatever i had available" necessity rather than any specific tonal intent. i have a 4x10 cab with three different kinds of speakers in it & it sounds good! i grew up plugging into whatever we managed to afford from the local pawnshop, so as long as everything works, i can use it make music.
 

eigentone

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
9,182
I too have had much better results not mixing speaker models. In general, I find mixed model configurations have less focus and more phase cancellation (which I usually find undesirable.) If I want to blend another amp and/or cab or connect a second cab to get that effect/dimension, well that is easy. But I don't want that effect/dimension all the time. It can make the sound very inconsistent across the room and incompatibilities with various amps/channels and guitars sprout up.

Those are just my general preferences based on my experiences. If you are somebody that loves mixing speakers, great. I am glad you found what you like.
 
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KFBR392

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
3,508
If I had enough money and time, I'd buy all the stock popular 12" speakers, a Mozilla 2x12 cab, a few good amps, some tools, and hire out a "good sounding" studio, and a panel of professional producers (Tim Pierce would probably be high on the list).

Then, I would try all possible combinations, get the pro's to provide objective feedback, and make scientific notes on results. I would publish all results with in a "Best to Worst" descending list, with objective commentary on each step.

This would produce a Bell Curve. There would be a small number of "Excellent" pairings. There would be a high number of "average" nothing special pairings. There would be a low number of "disastrous" pairings.

One has to assume that pairing two identical speakers in the same cab produces "great" results, otherwise, manufacturers wouldn't do it.

So, two mixed speakers providing "great" results doesn't really offer anything over "matched" speakers.

What we're after is that small percentage of "Excellent" results. But what are they?

There's thousands of posts across the Web claiming Excellent results when mixing two different speakers. Are we to believe everyone? Or should we just believe you? Because you obviously do know what you're talking about.

I'll tell you what works for me, 2x Celestion Blue Alnicos in my AC30. I've heard you can do better, but good is good enough for me. It's like that old saying, a bird in the hand and all that. That might change if I had unlimited sums of money (rich parents) that I could gamble away on random gear purchases.

But don't mind me. Please enjoy your mismatched speakers.
There’s nothing objective about this (the “objective commentary” is in and of itself highly subjective and would not be scientifically empirical in any way), but honestly it would be really fun to see this take place, throw it on YouTube as a blind comparison, and see what the people think sounds best to them. It’s a great idea for a fun experiment. You could do this yourself at home for cheap if you have the recording setup and different speakers already. I support it (not being facetious, genuinely interested in seeing it. I think it’s cool).
 




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