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No profiling competition for Kemper?

AdInfinitum

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
803
The issued patent tells you exactly the tech behind profiling - the recipe so to speak. There are probably several different ways to achieve something similar and not infringe the patent.

Todd - TM and C attorney, but not a P attorney - although my firm's partners play them on TV.
 

MaxTwang

Senior Member
Messages
3,704
Because Kemper's patent is broad enough that anything that could be described as profiling would probably be a violation of it.
The patent can be summarized "automated knob twiddler and variable setter while monitoring a stimulus through an audio processor".

That, and there's still no really good theory about how the kemper actually does what it does. It's surprising how hard that nut has been to crack for the wider DSP/audio engineering community. And no, don't tell me it's all in the patent, it's not, the patent info is high level and abstract with no implementation details.
Cliff at Fractal has some good theories based on his early approaches to amp modeling. He posted these when Kemper came out.
 

DigitalTube

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,250
Think only reason for no competition is the patent, profiling really works well and in my opinion gets you the most realist results, i'm pretty sure some other companies probably could do something similar to profiling, but don't want to get in trouble.
 

MaxTwang

Senior Member
Messages
3,704
I triple dog dare you to speculate on how many base amp models are contained within the Kemper.
>1

Kemper acknowledged a single model for cleans, and I'd suspect a base model for each 'iconic' type of distortion; Fender, Recto, Plexi, modded Marshall, etc.
 

aleclee

TGP Tech Wrangler
Staff member
Messages
13,235
That, and there's still no really good theory about how the kemper actually does what it does. It's surprising how hard that nut has been to crack for the wider DSP/audio engineering community. And no, don't tell me it's all in the patent, it's not, the patent info is high level and abstract with no implementation details.
There were also some features added to the AxeFX that were hoped to be useful in generating KPA-like matches. Anyone ever wonder why the synth block can do frequency sweeps? ;)
 

phil_m

Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
12,607
Think only reason for no competition is the patent, profiling really works well and in my opinion gets you the most realist results, i'm pretty sure some other companies probably could do something similar to profiling, but don't want to get in trouble.
I think it's that they don't want to go through the trouble of challenging it when in the end it might only have a marginal benefit for them in terms of more sales. Fractal and Line 6 seem to be doing quite alright without having profiling, so I don't think adding it would give them a huge jump in sales necessarily. I think it would also be somewhat of an odd departure in a way. If your focus was entirely on modeling before and now you come out with some sort of profiling engine, it creates kind of odd dynamic within that ecosystem between a modeled and a profiled amp. It just seems somewhat unnecessary to me.
 

ChrisVereb

Member
Messages
2,084
The patent can be summarized "automated knob twiddler and variable setter while monitoring a stimulus through an audio processor".



Cliff at Fractal has some good theories based on his early approaches to amp modeling. He posted these when Kemper came out.
I work a bit with machine learning and I've wondered about building a specific amp simulator (not a profiler!) using some of those ideas - set up an I/O system for the physical amp, a virtual one for the simulator algorithm, and give the algorithm a way to judge it's progress and see how it goes. It'd be fun, but modelling "quality" is so subjective I wonder how useful the process would be. It'd just be another way to go about "tuning" but without nearly as clear of a path on how to improve things.
 

Ripthorn

Member
Messages
604
I triple dog dare you to speculate on how many base amp models are contained within the Kemper.
If I recall correctly, I think the number is 7. Don't remember where I read it, but I think that's at least in the ballpark. Even with distinct amps, there's really only a limited number of topologies. Most differences are in component values and some additional filtering.
 

Watt McCo

Member
Messages
11,204
If I recall correctly, I think the number is 7. Don't remember where I read it, but I think that's at least in the ballpark. Even with distinct amps, there's really only a limited number of topologies. Most differences are in component values and some additional filtering.
My recollection is there was a yelling match over whether it was 7 :) But my recollection may be wrong.
 

Ripthorn

Member
Messages
604
The patent appears like it was issues in 2008. The US patents are good for 17 years, if I remember correctly, so come 2025 we may very well see the availability of super cheap profilers...
 

Digital Igloo

Member
Messages
4,405
For the record, NO ONE is doing anything close to Kemper's profiling technology except for Kemper. No amount of marketing spin will turn a bog-standard Match EQ into some magic "Amp Cloning Engine." Match EQ has existed since Steinberg's Free Filter plugin in the late 90s, and it's found in half of all DAWs these days. There's nothing special about it.

Line 6 has zero interest in pursuing any type of profiling engine, because A) there's a patent, B) even if there wasn't a patent, we're not B@#$%&@$r, and C) we like Christoph.
 

river_jetties

Member
Messages
440
I think the type of guitarist who wants a profiler has already bought one. I see a lot of room for growth for something like Strymon's Iridium - I know not comparable as a product but are comparable for use.
 

Saxon68

Member
Messages
1,113
For the record, NO ONE is doing anything close to Kemper's profiling technology except for Kemper. No amount of marketing spin will turn a bog-standard Match EQ into some magic "Amp Cloning Engine." Match EQ has existed since Steinberg's Free Filter plugin in the late 90s, and it's found in half of all DAWs these days. There's nothing special about it.

Line 6 has zero interest in pursuing any type of profiling engine, because A) there's a patent, B) even if there wasn't a patent, we're not B@#$%&@$r, and C) we like Christoph.
Always above board. Kudos!
 

slowerhand

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
2,248
I think that's another of those patents that *could* be challenged and vacated. The US patent system is so broken.
He could have put his grannie's panties into that circuit and it would have been approved. Eventually.
A Gizmo that compares to another Gizmo that eventually comes out of a speaker.
Reminds me of the time when my grandma and her elderly neighbors were getting their corsets pinched from the clothesline on several occasions (to the hilarity of my teenage self and nephews.) After a few months, the crime wave stopped. (True story.) Finally we know the truth about what transpired.
 

AndrewSimon

Member
Messages
2,384
Or it's just maybe a genius design that nobody could match so far.... I have a hard time believing that the patent is responsible for the lack of competition.
 
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griggsterr

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
6,906
As cool as profiling is, I don't think it's going to survive the LONG term.

What I mean, is that I expect technologies like ReValver to end up supplanting profiling altogether. When emulation/simulation gets down to the component level, you're able to achieve the same result as profiling but with FAR more flexibility.

I anticipate that there will be a blurring of the line between "amp" tones and "synthesized" tones down the road. Where as part of your own rig, as it were, you're doing things like changing filters and waveforms in your signal chain. And it'll all be part of some overarching technology that includes traditional amp simulation.

But that's probably a good 15-30 years down the road.
That is being done already by Positive Grid. The whole component level emulation thing. I had one and tried it. Some good and bad to it.
 




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