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Observation from reading tons of Dumble threads...

Woodyworld

Member
Messages
2,104
I know Dumbles are a sacred cow to many. I'll admit that I have owned or played most holy grail amps except for a Dumble. All of the Dumble emulator pedals I have tried I did not like. Maybe the smooth "Wooo" fusion like sustain is not for me. However on the Dumble (and clone) recordings I do like, it's the lush clean tone that gives me wood.
Kimock is a great example of this. Is the clean tone the real HAD magic? Dumble players enlighten me.
It's already been covered - I have two clones and the cleans are indeed superb. I agree, most clone pedals I've bought leave me wanting - They're usually compressed and very heavy on the mids - not like the amps. However, I do like the Dumble tone - love the way they record and cut live - but I've experimented enough with other amps to appreciate it's not the Holy Grail. Lots of great amps out there. In fact for live I don't use my clones anymore - I use a good clean platform and pedals -and for lead tones I vary between an OCD, Tim Pierce drive and Ethos...

I did actually own a Two Rock Kimock signature for a few years - very nice amp but quite different to what I later would have defined as how I heard a Dumble tone.
 

Boxcar Wookie

Member
Messages
479
Who are you asking?? You should quote the person so they know.
Oh pardon me I thought I had. my post was directed at hunter. I was trying to understand where his info was coming from. If he had actual knowledge to share.

Tag in your opinion. Are there any active builders that could be commissioned to build a true Dumble sounding and responding amp. I don't care what it looks like. I just want the sound.

I have experience playing a few real ones and have compared them to many of the favorites. But none really did what they are claimed to. One is to bright. Another is to dark and muddy. Others sound more like a noisy high gain amp.

I have about $2500 to throw at it. I've talked to voodoosound and he basically said not to waste my money on the usual suspects. Only caveat was Bruno and Sebago?
 

hunter

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,577
Why do you read it as an insult? I stated lots of people are perfectly happy with 2nd and 3rd tier gear. I stated a fact. I used to own several Dumbles. I sold them when I saw the prices they were fetching. I did keep one though. But don't be fooled. NONE of the clones out there have the same Dumble finite tweaking. You play a good Dumble you'll figure out anyway you can to procure it. Just like I did in the 80s. As far as any of the "clones". I'd buy a mesa before I wasted my money on someone's so called clone. The only way to truly "clone" a circuit is to take it apart completely and measure each component. Even then you still have to rely on the designers ears and skills as a builder. No one has Mr Dumes ears except Mr Dumble.for the life of me I can't understand why people post in Dumble threads when they have no experience with a Dumble.

It's equivalent to people posting about people of means when the people posting have 0 experience with having more than the next weeks paycheck to count on. Is that the person of means fault or the slacker that didn't have the forsight to do whatever necessary to not be poor?
Have you owned one? I'm genuinely curious as I like the sound but don't have the money for a real one.

You made a statement but are not willing to back it? That seems strange. That's fine. I don't want to argue either. I got what I expected.
Why deny it?

No I haven't owned one. But I have an amp that does a great job getting me what I want out of a Dumble style amp.

hunter
 

Boxcar Wookie

Member
Messages
479
Why deny it?

No I haven't owned one. But I have an amp that does a great job getting me what I want out of a Dumble style amp.

hunter
I didn't deny anything. I said I don't own any Dumbles. I can play them anytime at a friends and did previously just as my post stated. That is a fact. How is that relevant to your post? The one you can not answer? No knowledge posting in a thread above your head. See, I guess you do want to argue after all.
 
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plumberstrummer

Fatal3Records.com
Messages
1,320
What kind of sound are you looking to get out of the "Dumble" thing? There is a pretty drastic range of styles, and some are easier to find at affordable prices than others.

Do you want the early ODS thing (low gain), or the 90's ODS thing (Hot Rodded Marshall), or a Steel String Singer kind of clean - or are you after overall responsiveness?
 
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Boxcar Wookie

Member
Messages
479
What kind of sound are you looking to get out of the "Dumble" thing? There is a pretty drastic range of styles, and some are easier to find at affordable prices than others.

Do you want the early ODS thing (low gain), or the 90's ODS thing (Hot Rodded Marshall), or a Steel String Singer kind of clean - or are you after overall responsiveness?
I would like it to have the nice reed type sound that my first amp had. Responsive but not stiff. My first ODS was exactly like that but I don't know what type it was. It had 6l6s and pretty much looked like every other ODS.
 

Woodyworld

Member
Messages
2,104
Its hard for me to fathom this. I had an ethos for years, and while its a good box, its not even in the stratosphere of my Dumble or Quinn. The Zendrive, Ethos, Simble and Mad Professor early sky blue overdrive are the best boxes I have found. The MP sounds amazing IF you plug it into a Dumble amp, but then whats the point??
Fair enough Tag :)

In all honesty these threads are fun - but they can be amusing too. I was bitten by the whole dumble thing for many years obsessing over every new bit of gear - every photo showing the settings - NOS tubes, Caps, lead lengths, new builders etc. It was a fun Journey and I've enjoyed the whole thing. However, I realise now that so much of it is in the player and how they touch the instrument - how they set up their signal chain. I believe great tone is just a recipe - choosing ingredients that work well together /compliment each other with the most important element being the player. I think Dumble is as much in the hands as the gear - to a player listening. Of course the feel and interaction is something that Dumble lovers will swear by - but I think most people are trying to copy a Dumble sound they hear - My pedal choices are usually a result of trying to get the same feel as the clones - for me the Ethos helped me get that.

Jee I've probably stirred up the hornets nest - brace myself :)
 
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plumberstrummer

Fatal3Records.com
Messages
1,320
I would like it to have the nice reed type sound that my first amp had. Responsive but not stiff. My first ODS was exactly like that but I don't know what type it was. It had 6l6s and pretty much looked like every other ODS.
There is a used Welagen on reverb for 3500 (not affiliated at all), but that is a little out of your range. Personally, I think Two Rock has done some great work over the years, but they are not straight ahead Dumble clones. Bill Krinard does do that thing better than anyone, but those are hit and miss used (and can be pricey). Still, for the price, I can't imagine you will find better than Sebago for the ODS. They are PCB, though, and in my experience will show themselves as such when you dial up the power amp volume. Save for hand wired, if you can swing it. I like the Sebago stuff enough, but you may be a little disappointed since you already have Dumble experience.

That all being said, if 2500 is a limit I would suggest looking used for a deal, or find a builder who you trust to modify a 70s Fender. A lot of guys are really into Fuchs as well, and I think that Fuchs or Sebago are about on par.
 

Boxcar Wookie

Member
Messages
479
There is a used Welagen on reverb for 3500 (not affiliated at all), but that is a little out of your range. Personally, I think Two Rock has done some great work over the years, but they are not straight ahead Dumble clones. Bill Krinard does do that thing better than anyone, but those are hit and miss used (and can be pricey). Still, for the price, I can't imagine you will find better than Sebago for the ODS. They are PCB, though, and in my experience will show themselves as such when you dial up the power amp volume. Save for hand wired, if you can swing it. I like the Sebago stuff enough, but you may be a little disappointed since you already have Dumble experience.

That all being said, if 2500 is a limit I would suggest looking used for a deal, or find a builder who you trust to modify a 70s Fender. A lot of guys are really into Fuchs as well, and I think that Fuchs or Sebago are about on par.
I wasn't aware Sebago used pcb. Yes thank you that's interesting.
 

hunter

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,577
I didn't deny anything. I said I don't own any Dumbles. I can play them anytime at a friends and did previously just as my post stated. That is a fact. How is that relevant to your post? The one you can not answer? No knowledge posting in a thread above your head. See, I guess you do want to argue after all.
Like I said, you are already in the club. And you know the usual answers. You have argued against the clones before.

BTW I too really like the sound of an Ethos. I play mine di'd to board with an outboard cab sim all the time. It is my standard gig rig right now. It sure records and comes through the PA like a Dumble records and comes through a PA. Dumble sound with a pedal? Yes. Bring someone like Sonny Landreth into the equation. He has and gigs an ODS (and a Demeter etc) but uses the ODS clean channel and a Zendrive for overdrive.

Far too much magic is attached to the Dumble name. I have in the past and continue in the present to give Mr Dumble full credit for a very creative design and development of a very cool set of sounds. It is pretty much the sound I started looking/listening for back in 72 when I was dialing up the mids and rolling down the bass and treble (skyline EQ anyone?) on my Super Reverb and getting the volume up to about 7 so it would sing. Unfortunately that was rarely possible on the club scene, even then. Now the secret is out and the magic is public domain. And at last, it is accessible to the common man and in the realm of affordability. Pick your flavor and put it on the bandstand. You will get the sound and the feel. I have a clone, an inexpensive one, and it works well.

hunter
 

plumberstrummer

Fatal3Records.com
Messages
1,320
I wasn't aware Sebago used pcb. Yes thank you that's interesting.
(Fuchs too... FWIW)

Two Rocks are very well built (hand wired) amps, and you can find some of the older "under the radar" gems for a steal - under 2500 even. If you were to ask me for the best "Dumble style" amp for under $2500, I'd say a used Two Rock without a question. Just a thought, but like I said; not a straight ahead ODS. They have their own thing, for better or for worse, relatively speaking. Welagen is Hand Wired, and Bludos are also Hand Wired.

I have preference for Bill Krinard and Jelle Welagen overall. They are both excellent and meticulous builders, and really know their stuff (both have measured and copied many many Dumbles part for part. I also know they talk on the phone occasionally and share). Bludo is great as well, totally respect his work, but I have never played one that blew me away compared to the Krinards that blew me away. I'd even take certain Bill amps over certain Dumbles I've played - but not all. Some of the Dumbles I played are unmatched.
 
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Messages
12,550
I know Dumble was a great amp builder for sure - quite perfectionistic. But I never did learn what separates him from other great amp builders. My amp has lovely harmonic feedback at low volumes too. My amp has great cleans and overdrive both. I would love to know what makes D style amps or Dumbles better than other amps. I've never heard a demo that made it clear to me. Seems it's not that great of a challenge to get thick sustainy middly leads, with a good EQ.
 

plumberstrummer

Fatal3Records.com
Messages
1,320
I know Dumble was a great amp builder for sure - quite perfectionistic. But I never did learn what separates him from other great amp builders. My amp has lovely harmonic feedback at low volumes too. My amp has great cleans and overdrive both. I would love to know what makes D style amps or Dumbles better than other amps. I've never heard a demo that made it clear to me. Seems it's not that great of a challenge to get thick sustainy middly leads, with a good EQ.
It's not hard to imitate that sound, and that mids heavy sustaining thing is just a setting that is popular (not my favorite, either). But to me, Dumbles are not a sound, they are an amplifier. It is very hard to get the feel and/ or response from an amp that Dumbles provide, and the kind of infinite adjustability that the design allows. The recorded sound itself could be imitated a number of ways to varying degrees, but the experience of playing it cannot be accomplished without meticulous attention to detail, experience, and high quality components. Even then, there is more to it than just the component values and the circuit. There is the soldering techniques, layout, brand choices (even down to the year the capacitors are produced), etc. Each component has a certain sound, and it takes experience to know how that will play out with the rest of the components in tone.

That all being said, there are certainly other builders who hold their own. However, each end result is going to be the product of how that builder works, and what they listen for. Kind of like food from great chefs - same recipe, same ingredients, different experience.
 

Tag

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
39,831
Oh pardon me I thought I had. my post was directed at hunter. I was trying to understand where his info was coming from. If he had actual knowledge to share.

Tag in your opinion. Are there any active builders that could be commissioned to build a true Dumble sounding and responding amp. I don't care what it looks like. I just want the sound.

I have experience playing a few real ones and have compared them to many of the favorites. But none really did what they are claimed to. One is to bright. Another is to dark and muddy. Others sound more like a noisy high gain amp.

I have about $2500 to throw at it. I've talked to voodoosound and he basically said not to waste my money on the usual suspects. Only caveat was Bruno and Sebago?
The older Two Rocks. K&M Custom is a hell of an amp. The "Artist" is another of my favorites. The Emerald pro and Opal are HRM so a bit more compressed and harder attack in overdrive, so I would avoid those for what you are describing. Those Two Rocks are going to get you as close or closer to Dumbles I like than anything but a Quinn. Those are VERY close, and I have clips showing it. If you like 70s Dumble sounds however, these are NOT what you are looking for. Also, try before hand, but some of the Fuchs sound great too. All of those used should be in your price range, and I have A/Bd all of them with actual Dumbles.
 

Tag

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
39,831
(Fuchs too... FWIW)

Two Rocks are very well built (hand wired) amps, and you can find some of the older "under the radar" gems for a steal - under 2500 even. If you were to ask me for the best "Dumble style" amp for under $2500, I'd say a used Two Rock without a question. Just a thought, but like I said; not a straight ahead ODS. They have their own thing, for better or for worse, relatively speaking. Welagen is Hand Wired, and Bludos are also Hand Wired.

I have preference for Bill Krinard and Jelle Welagen overall. They are both excellent and meticulous builders, and really know their stuff (both have measured and copied many many Dumbles part for part. I also know they talk on the phone occasionally and share). Bludo is great as well, totally respect his work, but I have never played one that blew me away compared to the Krinards that blew me away. I'd even take certain Bill amps over certain Dumbles I've played - but not all. Some of the Dumbles I played are unmatched.
To my ear, the Two Rocks are much closer and better sounding than the other brands you mentioned. Yes I have played them all.
 

Tag

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
39,831
I know Dumble was a great amp builder for sure - quite perfectionistic. But I never did learn what separates him from other great amp builders. My amp has lovely harmonic feedback at low volumes too. My amp has great cleans and overdrive both. I would love to know what makes D style amps or Dumbles better than other amps. I've never heard a demo that made it clear to me. Seems it's not that great of a challenge to get thick sustainy middly leads, with a good EQ.
Its not better unless you like that tone. Its totally unique, and its extremely hard to get even the best clones to sound like them when you put them side by side with the real deal. Its amazing actually. The Dumbles always sound bigger and badder in person. Enough to bug the $HIT out if you.
 

Tag

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
39,831
It's not hard to imitate that sound, and that mids heavy sustaining thing is just a setting that is popular (not my favorite, either). But to me, Dumbles are not a sound, they are an amplifier. It is very hard to get the feel and/ or response from an amp that Dumbles provide, and the kind of infinite adjustability that the design allows. The recorded sound itself could be imitated a number of ways to varying degrees, but the experience of playing it cannot be accomplished without meticulous attention to detail, experience, and high quality components. Even then, there is more to it than just the component values and the circuit. There is the soldering techniques, layout, brand choices (even down to the year the capacitors are produced), etc. Each component has a certain sound, and it takes experience to know how that will play out with the rest of the components in tone.

That all being said, there are certainly other builders who hold their own. However, each end result is going to be the product of how that builder works, and what they listen for. Kind of like food from great chefs - same recipe, same ingredients, different experience.
My Dumble had parts that were anything but high quality. I would leave that out of the equation for sure.
 

plumberstrummer

Fatal3Records.com
Messages
1,320
My Dumble had parts that were anything but high quality. I would leave that out of the equation for sure.
Fair enough, I think you are right about that. I have a clone that is made with modern parts that slays some of my NOS stuff - but it does sound more "modern" (I like that though). In my experience, the parts do not need to be "high quality" per say, but there are certain sounds that each type of part produces. The builders I've spoken to about it understand that, and use the appropriate parts to their tonal advantage. Again, I think of chefs and food...

I've listened to the clips you posted comparing your Dumbles with different parts, and I would definitely agree that your Dumble stuff sounds pretty killer (but I can't help thinking the builders helped.) Besides, I do know that Dumble has used all kinds of parts - but clearly he knows how to use the tools at his disposal. Nothing wrong with modern parts if they get the sound you want! There are some parts that are so bad they actually suck, though.

*EDIT*: So, I guess the right thing to say would rather be, the right kind of components for the sound you are after, rather than "high quality components"? Thank you for that input...

the sebago od dlx is handwired
Didn't know that! He doesn't say so anywhere on his site, and everything on his "tech info" page explains how the tube sockets and pots are "hand wired" to the PC board. I assumed he would say so if otherwise with the DLX, but he does say to call and ask. Honestly, I'm all for that way of doing PCB, if you are gonna do it. Soldano and many others use those techniques and make great amps (Sebago included). Still, it's a PC board so its affordable.
 
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