OD pedal that has the Orange-tone (Peter Green)

Discussion in 'Effects, Pedals, Strings & Things' started by Cussion, Jul 8, 2006.

  1. Cussion

    Cussion Member

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    Has anyone tried an OD pedal that can get close to the very unique voice of Orange amps?
    you know, I love the sound Peter Green had on the Shrine '69 live album.

    Lots of pedals try to emulate the Marshall Plexi tone, or the Vox AC30 tone..
    but I've never heard of a pedal that emulates the Orange/Matamp tone.
     
  2. Bernardduur

    Bernardduur Member

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    I build a pedal that is the preamp of an Orange 120 amp; I just subbed the tubes with FET's and biased them at the exact voltage that they emulate the tubes in a very good way. This pedal will react just like an amp; it will give gain, compression and a wide EQ.
     
  3. Cussion

    Cussion Member

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    Interesting! so.. if you use that with an EL34-based Power Amp you can actually achieve some Orange-tones?
     
  4. Bernardduur

    Bernardduur Member

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    Yes. The sound will not be dead-on, but it will be very close, very close.

    I currently use (through the same design) an Ampeg SB-12 preamp and a Fender '59 Tweed Bassman preamp as the main source of my bass Overdrive.
     
  5. fast ricky love

    fast ricky love Supporting Member

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    I think we'd all like to hear more about this!!
     
  6. Bernardduur

    Bernardduur Member

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    I will post some sounds when I can.
     
  7. theelectic

    theelectic Guest

    If you're just biasing the drains to 4.5V with the same source resistance like Runoffgroove.com, it won't sound anything like an Orange.
     
  8. Bernardduur

    Bernardduur Member

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    A bias at 4.5V is a very easy way of biasing these kind of FET's. I usually use an oscilloscope to find that exact point on which the turns on.

    At Run Off Groove, a lot of different preamps are available, but no Orange. The Orange preamp is made after a real Orange preamp, but with the substitution of FETs for tubes.

    I personally think a proper biased preamp sound quite decent to capture the unique sound of an amp.
     
  9. enharmonic

    enharmonic Old Growth Gold Supporting Member

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    I'd be interested in checking this out as well :)
     
  10. theelectic

    theelectic Guest

    You're completely missing the point. The gain and frequency response will not be anything like an Orange with a simple 4.5V bias. There is a small but significant change required, but as a cloner I wouldn't expect you to know that.

    Have you actually played an Orange amp before? If you have, you'd know that they are utterly unique - that sound can't be captured in another amp, let alone a pedal.
     
  11. PaulC

    PaulC Member

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    There are several major flaws in this subing jfet aproach. What people have been doing for years is to take an amp and make a pedal that had the preamp cloned with jfets instead of tubes. The problem is jfets are not tubes, and can not act the same way, and are not even close if you just copy the cathode resistors and used those values for the jfets.

    Those who know tubes have been saying for a while that you can not do this and expect tube like overdrive with nothing more than adjusting the drain resistor to bias it. Gain before clipping, wave symmetry, freq response due to miller effects, loading effects, harmonic balance, bias shifts ... These things are not addressed with the subbing method, and biasing a jfet at 4.5 volts will do nothing to make this circuit work/sound like a tube.

    But more so is the fact that these are preamp based pedals. In the original amp design these preamps were ment to run into something that was pretty much a flat response pwr amp. The problem with these preamp based jfet circuits is they use the same tone controls as the preamp, and they want to see a flat eq'd amp to do their thing. They do not work well at all running into another preamp and it's eq curve.

    Look at a black face. It's eq curve has a major dip at about 400hz. A marshall has a much flatter eq curve. So when you make that marshall jfet preamp you are not even going to get close to the sound (even if you used tubes) because that passive tone stack from the marshall can not fill the hole of the black face, and still keep it's marshally curve. If you want to make a black face sound like an orange amp you'd need something totally different than an orange amp preamp to do it. You'd find yourself with death metal sounds because of the amps eq dip that the pedal couldn't get rid of. These types of pedals can sound pretty good plugged into pwr amps, but I've never heard one come close to sounding like the real thing when plugged into the front end of an amp.

    PaulC

    BTW the orange preamp has been done. Search diystompboxes.com and you'll see it with links showing how to build your own.
     
  12. Bernardduur

    Bernardduur Member

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    At first: yes, I have played the Orange amp; I have played various Orange amps and yes, I know that they have a special sound.

    People, we are talking here about an OD pedal that can mimic the sound of the Orange amp, not a pedal that magically turns your amp from the first into a complete other amp. That is not possible.
    The question as posted above was to inform if there is such a pedal, and as a person who played through a lot of different OD boxes I must say that this one is a box that can come close.

    Oh, I'm not ONLY cloning stuff...... I have build my own amps and am using them. And no, this one is completely designed by me (1x12AU7 + 3x12AX7, 2x6550's and a tube reverb).
     
  13. Dana Olsen

    Dana Olsen Gold Supporting Member

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    I think my favorite amp of all time is an Orange 80w Matamp my pal Bob had in the 70's and early 80's. It would get just about any sound - we could mimic virtually everything with that amp through an Orange 4x12" cab w/ Fanes.
    Only problems were: the WEIGHT and the VOLUME (GRIN)
    I think you make a good point Bernardduur. I'm more of an amp guy than a pedal guy, and for that reason my expectations are low when it comes to a pedal "sounding like" and amp - for me, that's any pedal and any tube amp. That's just my preference, YMMV.

    What I'm hearing here is that Bernardduur is making a pedal with Fet's in an "Orange" flavor, in his opinion - no more, no less.

    Did I miss something?

    Dana
     
  14. RitalinCupcake

    RitalinCupcake Member

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    Did you read his post you quoted?

    "I usually use an oscilloscope to find that exact point on which the turns on."

    Why so hostile? Relax.:BEER

    I have read that the Caitalinbread SCOD is supposed to be kind of Orange like.
     
  15. themusicboxstudios

    themusicboxstudios Member

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    bjf EGDM

    i used to own an orange ad30 head ... this pedal captures that amp more than anything i've tried, including the SCOD. It's like a more aggressive, more jagged AC30.
     
  16. JKoeth

    JKoeth Supporting Member

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  17. Cussion

    Cussion Member

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    That sounds pretty damn cool!
    but probably it sounds plain different through another amp.

    I watched this Beat Club performance of Free, performing "Fire and Water" and Koss had the
    most wonderful rhythm-crunch and singing lead-sound when he turned up the guitar's volume knob.
    They played through Orange Matamps. Wonderful sound.
     
  18. VanStone

    VanStone Member

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    The SCOD into a Marshallesque amp will do a very nice Tony Iommi sort of Orange sound. I don't think the SCOD will do a bluesy Peter Green thing, however. YMMV

    V
     
  19. Dana Olsen

    Dana Olsen Gold Supporting Member

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    I posted earlier on this thread, but after reading and thinking some more, I agree with theelectic and Paul C. w/ respect to tone.

    I'm not bothered if bernadduur makes a pedal he feels is in an "Orange" flavor, and calls it that. I'm OK with that.

    Until I played through Paul C's and Bjorn's pedals, I had VERY LOW expectations about pedals actually sounding and feeling like amps. Since I played through their pedals, I'm revising my thinking on that. Both Paul and Bjorn make pedals that blow my mind.

    In the case of Orange amps, especially late 60's Matamps like Peter Green used, I agree with theelectic's statement about Orange amps quoted above. I have no problem with someone building a pedal that they describe as "Orange "flavor, but I think that that particular sound is not duplicateable in a pedal that goes in front of another pre-amp for the reasons Paul C explains in his previous post.

    Dana O.
     
  20. iggs

    iggs Member

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