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Oh, you installed hospital-grade outlets. That's nice.

Discussion in 'Home Audio (Stereo Systems)' started by twinrider1, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. Jackie Treehorn

    Jackie Treehorn Member

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    If you're serious about audio, you have tube equipment. Yes, who cares about power if you're using solid state, you'll get inferior sound either way.
     
  2. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    Where are you getting this? This is debatable even in audiophile circles, depends on what you want. Monitoring accuracy, you'd want solid state. Enjoyment, you'd go tube. Different strokes for different audiophiles. One is not inferior than the other, depends on your preferences. And these are all generalizations anyway, you can have crap tube amps as much as you can have crap solid state amps.
    And both solid state amp and tube amp will sound identical provided that the two have the same gain, same measured frequency response, same measured output impedance and low enough measured distortion and noise.

    Regarding power, even with tubes, the solution shouldn't be to mess with the mains power. Just get a voltage regulator.
     
  3. Jackie Treehorn

    Jackie Treehorn Member

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    Clearly you've bought into the snake oil that your harsh, sterile, boring solid state amp sounds that way because it's "more accurate." The reality is that you get both with a good tube amp, accuracy and enjoyment.

    Yes in your fantasyland where every possible parameter of amplifier performance is the same it might not matter, but here on earth I use tube amplifiers because they are superior sounding.

    But, getting back on topic, yes, maybe there is no benefit to power conditioning on a solid state amplifier. It's like putting a spoiler on a Prius to drive to the grocery store. It doesn't mean spoilers are BS to the formula one driver who requires a higher level of performance.

    Another way of looking at it, a very powerful telephoto lens requires a tripod to hold the camera steady for a clear shot. That doesn't indicate that the lens is designed worse than a normal focal length lens. It also doesn't mean tripods are snake oil because people used to average lens don't understand the need for them.
     
  4. HammyD

    HammyD Supporting Member

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    Years ago one of the AudioFile magazines published a satirical article by an electrical engineer explaining why you needed to have truly clean power for your home stereo. He argued every aspect all the way to point that you needed your own waterwheel being powered by only pure water from a stream in the mountains. It was exceptionally well written and absolutely hilarious.
     
  5. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    I agreed with you, tube amps can sound "better." But it doesn't sound better because it's accurate.
    If you want to learn, here:
    http://kenrockwell.com/audio/why-tubes-sound-better.htm

    Look at recording studios. Do they use tube amplification for their monitors? No, they want as accurate as possible, which is what good solid state designs give you, no added harmonics or distortion.

    I never said power conditioning (or more precisely, voltage regulating) did nothing, I suggested its use with tube amplifiers. My point is that messing with the mains power is a frivolous pursuit. Your analogies aren't making any counterpoints to what I've said if that's what you meant to do.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
  6. Jackie Treehorn

    Jackie Treehorn Member

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    That's a good article, but a crucial element that is missing is perception of distortion. It takes a lot more even order distortion than higher order odd to even be perceived as distorted or inaccurate. The reason solid state amps sound bad and inaccurate is their odd order distortions, which are constant in level. So any conclusion that tube amplifiers sound good because they add even order distortion is somewhat misleading since a relatively higher % of even order distortion does not necessarily lead to an inaccurate reproduction.

    Tube amps are clearer and more detailed, hence the greater benefit to being attentive to elements like power, cables, etc that don't matter as much with your average solid state amp.
     
  7. paulbearer

    paulbearer Supporting Member

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    I hope these guys are discarding their albums after each play.

    They probably have a dedicated injection molding biscuit maker which presses out a fresh copy using 3d printed metal masters for each listening session.
     
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  8. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    Whether valve or transistor, a good amp will present distortion levels far lower than perceptible.

    If you want to argue that tube amps sound better than solid state, it is precisely because you hear additional even order harmonics.
    If you want to argue that tube amps are more accurate, it is precisely because there's no harmonic distortion present.
    You can't have both in one design, it's illogical.

    And you should read up on intermodulation distortion. It is much more detrimental, and audible at levels lower than harmonic distortion.
    Intermodulation distortion comes hand in hand with harmonic distortion, both caused by the same nonlinearities in an amp.
    This is why the very best valve amps have very low distortion. It will present low harmonic distortion, even or odd. Best valve/solid-state, they both try to accomplish the same thing. Low distortion, low intermodulation distortion, etc., they both basically sound the same.

    So you arguing that tube amps are both more accurate and sound better makes no sense.

    Here, do some reading:
    http://sound.whsites.net/valves/valve-trans.html
     
  9. Jackie Treehorn

    Jackie Treehorn Member

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    It's perfectly logical when you understand that even, low order distortions are not as audible and measurements of nonlinear distortions such as thd and imd do not consistently correlate to audio quality. I suggest you read Dr. Geddes research into perception of nonlinear distortions.

    It doesn't matter much that tube amplifiers have high second order distortions because we can't hear them as well, they are masked by the fundamental. What matters is the higher order odd distortions which our hearing does not mask. They are more problematic (audible) at low levels. That's why solid state amps sound worse, they may be lower distortion in total quantity, but the nature of their distortions are more readily perceived, especially at lower volumes.
     
  10. R3deemed

    R3deemed Member

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    An interesting conversation to be having on TGP of all places.

    I once heard a $5K system. I was nice, but nice enough to justify spending all that cash.

    I wouldn't mind giving a listen to the $100K speakers in the OP though.
     
  11. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    Unless I'm reading it wrong, his study does not say that even low order harmonics are not as audible. His study suggests that all low order harmonics are not as audible. It seems you're twisting his study to fit your claim.

    If your claim is that low order harmonics are imperceptible and does not matter, then it should make sense to you that a sufficiently low level of high order harmonics are also imperceptible and does not matter.
    Quality valve & transistor amps achieve this low level of harmonics, of all orders. They have low non-linear distortion period. So you're still not making sense here, you're not drawing good conclusions from his study.

    His study also suggests that distortion products that are created downward in frequency are more likely to be perceptible. This is exactly the issue of IMD. A non-linear amp that creates the high level of second order distortion that you claim does not matter, would necessitate a high level of IMD. This high level of IMD would create harmonics in low frequencies, perceptible and undesirable.

    Unless GedLee states somewhere specifically to how his study relates to the valve vs. solid-state discussion, you're drawing wrong conclusions from his study. And please let me know if I'm reading the study wrong somewhere, or if there's another study I'm not aware of, would love to learn if so. If not, what you're saying does not make sense.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  12. Chops

    Chops Gold Supporting Member

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    All so he can listen to Queen, LOL!
     
  13. Chrome Dinette

    Chrome Dinette Silver Supporting Member

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    Al Rose and 2016aug29 like this.
  14. Chrome Dinette

    Chrome Dinette Silver Supporting Member

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    I use battery powered systems exclusively. The batteries must only provide a charge via chemical means. I can hear the difference between those and batteries that have been charged via a charger powered by alternating current.






































    <sarcasm>
     
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  15. 2016aug29

    2016aug29 Member

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    A system powered by batteries charged directly by solar and/or wind power, NOW we're talking.
     
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  16. Al Rose

    Al Rose Silver Supporting Member

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    Oh man, I needed one of these to test receptacles a year ago for a file I was working. Large lawsuit where a plug fell part way out of a receptacle, arced, and started a fire. I had to rig up a test stand with a force gauge. This would have been so much better. Am going to order one now, Thanks!!!

    Al
     
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  17. Chrome Dinette

    Chrome Dinette Silver Supporting Member

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    It is definitely a legit product and I have seen them used in hospitals. There is definitely money being left on the table by not making them out of wenge and charging >$1k for them, though.
     
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  18. PremiumPlus

    PremiumPlus Member

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    Your system will sound better once you've tested the outlets. It (the gauge) aligns the proto molecular structure of the outlet, similar to the turboencabulator effect. It's going to reveal a much airier, transparent, unveiled listening experience, and will have a clarity of unleashed aura that is unmatchable. Only if you buy the expensive >$1K ones though. The reason is not clear, but that's unimportant.
     
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  19. ChorusCrackpot

    ChorusCrackpot Member

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    When moving into a rental property, I had a room (for my music equipment) re-wired for a separate electrical circuit, running at 15 Amps rather than just 10 Amps. The real estate agent approved it and everything.
     
  20. Justin Hitchborn

    Justin Hitchborn Supporting Member

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    You had me at turboencabulator.
     
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