Oh, you installed hospital-grade outlets. That's nice.

Discussion in 'Home Audio (Stereo Systems)' started by twinrider1, Jul 24, 2017.


  1. Hallogallo

    Hallogallo Member

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    A quick question for the EEs.

    When reading this thread I keep seeing versions of the phrase, 'if you have a tube amp'.
    I do have a tube amp, but recently have been playing a solid state JC40. Do solid state amps have the same problems being discussed in this thread?
    Thanks,
    HG
     
  2. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    JC40 is a guitar amp. The discussion has been about home stereo amps. Different products.

    Unless you have a specific question about "the same problems," doesn't seem relevant.
     
  3. Hallogallo

    Hallogallo Member

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    Ok, lets try this.
    Are the same problems consistent with tube or solid state stereo amps?
     
  4. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    What problems? You're going to have to be more specific, it's too general.
     
  5. Hallogallo

    Hallogallo Member

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    Any of the problems in this thread that have mentioned a phrase similar to "if you have tube amps".
     
  6. Justin Hitchborn

    Justin Hitchborn Silver Supporting Member

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    This whole thing just turned even more cryptic somehow.
     
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  7. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    It's not clear what question you're trying to ask, makes me wonder that perhaps you're not quite sure what you're asking either.
    If you want general info, you should google or follow some links posted on this thread.

    Your avatar is quite apt, really like it haha!
     
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  8. Justin Hitchborn

    Justin Hitchborn Silver Supporting Member

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    It's how I feel most of my life.
     
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  9. PremiumPlus

    PremiumPlus Member

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    I think you're asking if the same noise and/or interference problems plague tube and solid state amps, and I'd say probably yes they do. Typically guitar amps are not designed to have the very high signal to noise ratio that a high fidelity stereo amplifier is required to have. The power supplies are designed to be looser, with less filtering and a softer "saggy" response to instantaneous power requirements from the power amp stage of the amplifier.
    Either tube or SS guitar or bass amps really don't require extra filtering or other expensive power filtering schemes, unless you have a bad power utility supplying your house current. The power supplies in these units are well designed and typically just don't need any extra 'treatment'. Plug it in and play it. Watch out for florescent lights and lamp dimmers, or motors on the same circuit that you are plugging your audio stuff into. You'll be fine.
     
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  10. Al Rose

    Al Rose Silver Supporting Member

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    OK, I’m going to fan the flames here. Probably shouldn’t, but why not?!? So since moving back to Florida I’ve been meaning to get a good surge protection device. As an Engineer who investigates insurance losses, including lightning strikes, I know that in a direct lightning hit all bets are off, and surge protectors are, quite frankly, pretty useless. That said, we have lots of lightning hits on the lines that do make it into ones home, normally without any damage. But I figured I protect myself anyway. I’ve got too much investing in my Hi-Fi not to.

    So in the past I’ve listened to high-end system with power conditioners and have done A/B comparisons and have heard some differences with and without. Now I realize some of you will say I’m full of it, placebo effect, data shows otherwise, you didn’t do a double blind test, and all that. I’ll state up-front – I DON’T CARE WHAT YOU THINK. :eek: I trust my ears first, and as long as I’m happy, that’s what’s important. I do find it funny that some of the folks here on TGP will say things like cables and power conditioners don’t matter, as they’re rolling NOS tubes through their amps (which I do as well) talking about the differences. Whatever floats your boat…

    So, back to the point – I bought a Furman PL-8. $149 at Sweetwater (much more at hi-fi stores BTW). Came in yesterday. I first listened to one of my reference albums, then plugged my turntable, preamp, and power amp into the Furman and listened again. I truly expected to hear nothing different, and quite frankly was hoping to hear nothing different, as I didn’t want it to be worse. Well, surprise….the second cut of the Fogelberg/Weisberg album “Twin Sons of Different Mothers” – the drums were a bit further back in the soundstage (which I like), and the piano seemed to be a bit clearer. Went back to the original power strip, and drums came back a bit forward. Wow…was not expecting that. Listened to a few other albums, and some sounded a bit better (to my ears), some pretty much the same. So – does it make a difference? I certainly think so. Is the difference huge? No, not at all, but for $149 that’s pretty cheap for what my ears hear is a small improvement and hopefully a bit of protection from line surges.

    So I‘m thinking on buying another one for my guitar rig. Later today will try the current Furman on my Mesa Express 5:25+ which is a bit hissy and see if it knocks the hiss down any. BTW – the Furman is pretty solid in build. Steel casing, about 18” long, 8 outlets, and maybe 12-15 pounds. I’ve already got it situated behind my Hi-Fi and all my cables dressed so it’s staying right where it is. IOW - am not taking it out and trying in on my complete rig at this point (I know, bad planning on my part). I'll just buy another one. But the next one now requires taking it apart to see what’s inside…..:D

    Just wanted to post my experience....carry on…..

    Al
     
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  11. Justin Hitchborn

    Justin Hitchborn Silver Supporting Member

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    There's no issue with folks trusting their ears, so long as there is an understanding that even the inside slightest knowledge in an A/B test is enough to swing results decisively.

    If the goal is being happy, rigor doesn't matter. If the goal is objective improvements in an audio system (which must be defined beforehand), rigor matters.
     
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  12. Papanate

    Papanate Gold Supporting Member

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    Since you have stated that you don't care what we think - then I will leave you with this.
    Thinking that power supplies or conditioners can change the mix of a old Vinyl LP is
    ludicrous.

    Stating that you are into high end audio and then going out an buying a Furman thinking
    that it may make a difference is - well - whatever floats your boat. If you are an engineer
    then get out your Fluke and start measuring the voltages and amps coming across between
    the input and output of the Furman.

    That said - if you want to hear a difference in clarity and depth of audio - and you want to
    start with power - then install a opto isolated balanced power transformer on the incoming power to
    your house or apartment. Then hardwire 4 gauge wire from the Transformer to your room
    and distribute your power at that point.


    From experience - my studio is isolated and balanced. Everything is quieter - even my
    high end gear that was quieter to begin with - I can measure the Db output and see
    a quantifiable drop in extraneous noise.

    Furmans for the record - do not do jack all to the audio unless your gear is undersupplied
    or have poor transformers that act differently from 110 v to 125 v.
     
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  13. Al Rose

    Al Rose Silver Supporting Member

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    I'll speak to a couple of your points.

    First, I did not say nor imply I was changing the mix of an old Vinyl LP. You are very correct - that would be ludicrous. I said I heard a difference in the reproduction of the song through my Hi-Fi. That is WAY different. The music in the groves is the same. But playing it on an old Crosley console stereo will sound different than playing it on a Sony system will sound different than playing on a very good Hi-Fi. And remember, I did state I was not expecting to hear anything, because it's a cheap Furman for crying out loud. I agree with you in that regard. But I heard what I heard.

    Next - measuring voltage and currents (with one of my Flukes as you say - I have a few) won't really cut it. I think putting it on a scope and seeing the waveform in vs the waveform out would be the first step. Then looking at the frequency spectrums to see what's riding along would be helpful as well. Most think the power coming into your house is clean, but in many cases it's far from clean. I have a friend who was over power quality for Duke Energy (whom I worked for years ago) and some of the waveforms he showed me coming onto residences and commercial facilities was pretty surprising. Anything but a nice sine wave.

    Finally, kudos to your studio. Sounds like you did it right. That kind of falls into my comment above. Not too many people, at least in my experience, go to the lengths necessary to eliminate noise, both from stray RF and power line crud. Good job! What part of NC are you in?

    Al
     
  14. Papanate

    Papanate Gold Supporting Member

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    You said: the drums were a bit further back in the soundstage. That is a different mix.
    Although I know with our Barefoot Monitors we hear different depths - there is no way
    power could have any affect on the clarity of speakers. - Unless of course your power is
    so bad that it's wavering between 90v and 125v and funkafying the the power.


    Granted you are in a non scientific observational mode - but having mixed
    audio for the last 40 years - what you heard and what you attributed it to
    is impossible. Now you may very well have repositioned your self into the
    stereo image - and having not done that before - you may very well 'hear'
    the drums differently. However - voltages (barring failures in the system)
    can not in anyway affect depth of image. It's impossible.


    Are you saying that the wave form of AC current can affect the waveform of Audio?
    Seriously that is impossible barring any failures in the gear or power. For the Furman to
    have achieved a change in the audio waveform via the power waveform would be a
    Christmas miracle - again barring any failures in your setup.

    We had our entire system mapped to check for leaks, voltage drops etc...It's why
    we went to opto isolated balanced power. But again if your power is so bad and
    the Furman unit along with your gear has power conditioners contained within - and those
    are not failing or erratic - it's impossible to change an audio waveform via a power
    waveform.

    The good part where the super cool people hang out. Thankfully that kind of wears off on me a little bit - and I get to stay here.
     
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  15. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    @Al Rose I think this will be useful for you for understanding some psycho acoustics, and separating audiophile BS from reality.

    Good video for anyone really, can be a little long winded, but good:
     
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  16. Al Rose

    Al Rose Silver Supporting Member

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    @Papanate and @yeky83....it really is a bit presumptuous to tell me what I heard isn't possible when you were not here to hear it, nor do you know the set-up. The reason I said I didn't really care what others think is my mind was made up dozens of years ago from experience. I've been involved in music for over 45 years (will be 61 soon) from performing in bands, recording (I have a couple of CD credits, one is a national jazz guitarist), owning and operating a regional sound company doing national acts across the Southeast US, being an audiophile since the mid 1980's, and also having a degree in EE from Ohio State. I have learned over the years that theory is just that...theory. But the practice of engineering in the world sometimes doesn't match the theory, because we don't know as much as we think we know. Feel free to hang on to what you believe to be true and don't trust your senses. Your loss. Just because you can't explain it with what you currently know doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means one can not explain it. I'm sure you'll disagree with this as well, but that's OK.

    Have a happy and safe New Year!!

    Al
     
  17. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    Did you watch the first portion of the video I posted, about listener bias?
    I find it presumptuous that you're asserting you have powers of perception that no human being has.
     
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  18. Justin Hitchborn

    Justin Hitchborn Silver Supporting Member

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    @yeky83 thanks for that video by the way.
     
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  19. lp_bruce

    lp_bruce Member

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    I hear you guys. I just switched from my white USB cable to the red one and it's made all the difference!

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Uncle Mike

    Uncle Mike Member

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    I'm not an electrical engineer like Al Rose of Melbourne, but I hear what I hear and I have slept at a number of Holiday Inn Expresses. I have tried the Furman PL-8 and determined it basically does nothing for me other than separate me and my money. Now, with that said, a really good commercial quality pure sine wave UPS can really clean up noise issues.

    The biggest difference I have ever experience in my listening environment was to have my studio designed by an acoustics engineer. Clean power is great, but no, it doesn't change the mix.

    I hear what I hear and I see what I see.
    -Uncle Mike
     
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