outside lines for minor and major chords?

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by prof2915, Aug 9, 2005.

  1. prof2915

    prof2915 Guest

    Hello

    Playing "outside" on altered chords is´nt really a problem, but when it comes to "major" (7, 9, 6/9 etc) and "minor" (7, 9 11 etc) it´s not as easy to "go outside" in a tasty manner...

    Which are your favorite tools for outside playing on (static):

    - "Major"
    - "Minor"
     
  2. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    I have a chapter on this in my up and coming book.

    One simple vehicle is to use displacment. (start with chromatic)

    Over C7, start with mode 5 pentatonic (G Bb C D F)

    Then take any pattern out of that scale and alternate it with Gb or G# minor pentatonic. Mix and match. You can experiment with any other interval you like but that's the basic premise.
     
  3. prof2915

    prof2915 Guest

    Thanks

    If the chord is:

    - Cm7

    - Cmaj7
     
  4. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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  5. StevenA

    StevenA Member

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    Do you often hear outside lines over these chords?
    If you don't than why do you want to play outside? PLay outside because you must, not because you can. I think it sounds forced if you do it any other way. However, its probably a reasonable idea to immerse yourself in those who have made outside playing an art form like Coleman, Jarett,Tyner. You should get some good ideas from them.

    Hope this helps,
    Steven
     
  6. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    The only way it'll ever not sound forced is to do it. You have to go through a period of sounding forced in order to incorporate any new material.

    I haven't heard much of Jarrett playing outside. Can you recommend anything? Maybe his earlier stuff?
     
  7. StevenA

    StevenA Member

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    Jack, no argument here. Just want to keep encouraging players to play what they hear and feel, and not let music theory dictate their lines. If one wants to woodshed the 5th mode of Harmonic Major to get some ideas or inspiration, that's cool, and necessary.
    Hopefully the flavor of this mode will become part of the player's soloing fabric.

    I thought of Jarrett because of his post Debussy like weaving of intervals both consonant and dissonant over his lush chording. But you are right, not your typical example of outside soloing.

    Steven
     
  8. Tim Bowen

    Tim Bowen Member

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    As always, beauty is in the ear of the beholder.

    For major tonalities, the only alternate interval I've called on with any consistent success is the #11.

    Minor tonalities offer my tastes nearly as many possibilities as do dominant 7th chords (including altered voicings), maybe just because I dig the sweet & sour vibe of that tonality. The major 6th as implied over a straight minor is a nice sound; in context, try superimposing sounds of the IV7 over the I minor (for example, F7 over C minor). If you dig the sound of a minor/major 7 chord, play G augmented arps (and of course the cycled augmented inversions) over a C minor chord. Melodic minor scale as played on the root will get both the major 6th and the major 7th in there, which, to me, as tastefully placed, is just a deliciously dark sound. If we're talking strictly shapes, also try IV-7b5 ideas over a I minor (F-7b5, which could also be viewed as C#9, or the b5 (dominant-voiced) sub of C minor's V chord, over a C minor chord).

    Everything I've mentioned here could be analyzed or described in a variety of ways and contexts; it's all about tritones... I have certain sounds that I particularly enjoy over I, IV, and V chords, and other choices. The point is to determine what your ear digs, and that my choices might not be the same as yours.

    If you play it and it sounds forced or contrived, chances are that it IS, or it just doesn't fit the vibe of the material. But you have to force the stuff and be wrong for a while, until your ears take charge and call the shots. If the material (or your ear) doesn't call for outside tonalities, don't play them.
     
  9. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    Or you haven't practiced it enough and made it 2nd nature.
     
  10. StevenA

    StevenA Member

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    I have spent quite a bit of time trying to come up with choice lines. But I can't remember ever being successful applying music theory and being satisfied. I would analyze transcriptions and see many examples of Major 3rds over minor chords, flat 9 over major chords, major chords over minor chords, diminished over major chords. This would seem to be difficult to digest just by analysis but sounded GREAT when the recording was played back.

    So for me, this seems to work better in vivo than in vitro. Jack's section on Dodecaphonics seems to be saying that ultimately you can play anything over anything at anytime. What freedom! But I strongly believe that musical precedents need to occur before this will be widely adopted. So to summarize, I think my lines come to life after musical inspiration, rather than music theory. Jack's book is terrific and I will order Vol.II, but I'm not expecting any epiphanys.

    Steven
     
  11. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    I think you're right. Playing outside is about ordered chaos.
     
  12. Tim Bowen

    Tim Bowen Member

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    True enough, but not at all my (intended) point. Early on, I made it my concerted effort and crusade to superimpose outside tonalities wherever they might possibly fit. Harmonically speaking, the choices are nearly infinite; however, with regard to best speaking to the vibe of a given tune, the playing field is leveled considerably. This is (hopefully) where taste, and many years of listening and working, come into play in the working environment. I'm not a heavy jazz cat, but I did work the circuit fairly regulary for quite a few years. I'm a full time guy, but I don't currently earn my income from mainstream jazz playing. However, those sounds, that vibe, that phrasing, those concepts, and nearly all things peripheral in relation, have haunted me, and have followed me to nearly every working project I've taken on, since. "That vibe" is near and dear to my heart, to say the very least. That said, I work with a rather eclectic variety of writers, and I've come to realize that there are times when the coolest melodic line in existence can be the musical equivalent of wearing a tuxedo to a summer BBQ party; there are times when nothing else can possibly pack the whallop of a well-placed Chuck Berry lick. And there are times when a minimalist approach sounds (and is) quite ill-informed. When I cover "Wayfaring Stranger" - if the bassist swings a bit, I consider it a minor blues, so I swing a bit and speak more conversationally, and I play more "outside" tones; if the bassist "root-fives", I twang, play more chromatics, but ultimately play more harmonically simple. In all cases, it's mostly from the gut, and is determined by what I get (feel) from the folks in the room that I'm playing for, and with. Not only because those folks pay my bills, but because I also enjoy the ongoing challenge of adapting my playing on-the-fly to whatever the mood at hand might be. In fact, I absolutely love it. It's all relative, and it's all a matter of taste, and everybody's taste is different. I love music so much more since I no longer play only to my own tastes, whims, and preferences. It's more like adapting conversation to different individuals anymore.
     

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