Ovetone effects loop (again.. sorry!)- please explain (like i'm 5 y.o.)

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by monkjunior, Apr 18, 2008.

  1. monkjunior

    monkjunior Member

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    have read the posts about the passive EL in the overtone..... and the talk of the dumblator, and iron sound and all of that... i'm just not comprehending the deal with this thing....buffers blah blah... so wondering what if someone can explain to me the deal... its the volume drop issue when using it right and the way to fix it.... but are these the only ways changing the loop or??? or is it as simple as having a buffer pedal/device or booster in the effects loop..

    please explain in simpleton terms... thanks
     
  2. fullerplast

    fullerplast Senior Member

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    At the most basic level, you have the problem of signal level matching in a passive loop, both going into the effect and coming out of the effect. Too high or low on either side will sound bad, so you want a means to boost or cut the level on each side. So the basic dumbleator is an active buffer with level controls for send and return.

    On a secondary level, you have impedance matching, level control, and tone shaping (via bright switches) that take place in the loop. This can be useful even without effects as it's one more level and tone option between the preamp and power sections.

    If you have an effect that has input and output level controls, you can get by without a dumbleator (or equivalent) but it may still sound better with one...
     
  3. jdh

    jdh Supporting Member

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    Output impedance is a way of specifying how much resistance is in series with the output amplifier. While this defines how much current will get thru, it also can be a way of defining frequencies. Specifically, the higher the output impedance the more the high frequencies will be rolled off. Any circuit that filters frequency will also delay the frequencies in time. If not designed properly this delay (phase delay) can cause distortions which will seriously f*** things up. As any circuit added to the signal chain will "color" the sound, it is possible that some buffers may make things worse.
     
  4. fullerplast

    fullerplast Senior Member

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    Never discuss phase delay until a child is at least 6 years of age.....you'll just confuse him and make him cranky.:p
     
  5. fusionbear

    fusionbear exquirentibus veritatem Gold Supporting Member

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    Just get the Suhr mini-mix and plug your effects to that and be done with it. Now go to your room young man......
     
  6. jdh

    jdh Supporting Member

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    While it is true that I may have used too many technical terms, mea culpa, I hope I did point out that those unbuffered high impedance
    D-Style effects loops generally don't work well by themselves. And I should say again that just because a "buffered loop" is for sale doesn't mean it will be any better. Trust your ears as they are the most dynamic measurement tool in the box.
     
  7. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    On the ceriatone forum, Mike Klein was discussing making a line of FET based dumbleators from a circuit he designed called the klein-ulator. It's basically the dumbleator but with jfets instead of tubes. It's cleaner and quieter and sounds pretty much the same and is much cheaper. Runs off a boss power supply. The suhr device will work too and there's another company making a SS one as well though I can't recall the name offhand.

    I have been using the eventide timefactor and when it's output is set on "line" instead of "guitar" it bumps the volume and sounds great in the loop.
     
  8. Ed Reed

    Ed Reed Senior Member

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    If I remember our coversation correctly, Suhr told me he didn't think the mini mix would work at it's best with the Overtone. Lyle Cladwell has a unit he says will.

    I'm in line to get a Kline.
     
  9. NFB

    NFB Senior Member

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  10. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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  11. monkjunior

    monkjunior Member

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    thanks guys
    ok so for me the real test will be tonight.. have a 4 setter so will be able to really give this thing a whack....and get a handle for whats happening in a real situ as opposed to home playing

    so to summarize ..... what the???? ha ha... kidding...ok all good i understand whats going on kind of..

    so with the various options
    ie
    rodenburg (too freaken expensive!!)
    Dumbleator clone ( who's making these??? how much???)
    klein - ulator (how much???)
    psionic - ulator (another custom order right $$$???
    iron sound

    are these all mods that require getting into the amp and connecting and disconecting ans soldering which i have i dont really have a problem with if there is a easy point and do this type schematic /list.....
    but are there any that are a plug and play with the current jacks/loop... that could say mount in small enclosure attached to the bottom of the head cabinet...??? The rodenburg is out just not prepared to pay that much......
     
  12. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    Dont' forget www.RedPlateAmps.com

    His is actually the cheapest tube version that i know of. Nik's making a tube version too but I don't know when it'll be available.
     
  13. NFB

    NFB Senior Member

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    Please show me a lower cost option, Bludotone wanted $800 and a 6 month wait. If I wanted one in 3 months, he was going to charge me $1000. (What a ripoff!)

    The Rodenberg is very high quality, has the boost switch which is amazing, and was $648 shipped to my door in 5 days.

    It kicks butt in my Ceriatone.

    Note: I have played a few different Dumbleator clones including an original. Most have noise and are quite noticeable, the Robenberg was the unit with the least noise present and lowest in price.

    I did ask Nik, but he was very busy to focus on the Dumbleator, but hopefully soon.
     
  14. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    I just did. Klein-ulator and the www.redplateamps.com are way less.

     
  15. NFB

    NFB Senior Member

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    What is the price of each unit?

    I must be missing something, because I can't find the Buffered FX unit at Redplate amps?

    Do you have a website for the Klein unit?
     
  16. Jason Carter

    Jason Carter Member

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    Here are a few pics of my HomeBrew Kleinulator. If you have any experience with a soldering iron it is a smooth build. The unit functions really well with my D'lite. Michael Klein is top notch guy, I'm sure he can build one for you at a good price.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  17. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    No website on the klein. you can reach Mike Klein (klein-ulator) at mikeklein311@yahoo.com. Redplate amps doesn't have them listed yet. I believe the kleinulator is around $150 and the redplate dumbleator is around $250 but they may be less. Don't want to quote too low of a price.
     
  18. scottl

    scottl Member

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    Brandon has a Rodenberg Flexaloop. He obviously also has his own clones. From what I hear, from he and others, the real clones are a much better sounding unit, although I have not heard a comparison first hand.
     
  19. Ayan

    Ayan Member

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    Too bad! I have sold clones of the real thing for less than that, shipped, need another one? :) Lemme know. The Flextone is built very nicely. I had a chance to A/B one with one of my own clones a few years ago and while it works very well, the Flextone sounded more sterile for some reason. It is very quiet, however, most likely because of the toroidal power transformer it uses.

    I recently built a new Dumbleator clone using a choke, which most people don't do, and you can reduce the noise floor of the unit somewhat. It is probably a worthwhile investment for about $10 and 30 minutes worth of work.

    Cheers,

    Gil
     
  20. Soundhound

    Soundhound Member

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    I have a Ceriatone Overtone and have been using a delay (DD-6) and reverb (verbzilla) in the loop and didn't really notice a tonal change. But I haven't really listened for it, been focused on learning how to use the amp etc. What should I listen for with/without the loop engaged?
     

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