P&W Rigs/Pedalboards

boyce89976

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
7,756
^dude that's a huge venue to play at. Very cool!

It's been about a year since the last time I was in Nashville. I hit-up Broadway on a Monday night and while there were tons of bands playing I didn't see anyone going direct. However, I only went to about 3-4 places.
Last time I was at Municipal was for Van Halen in the late 90’s! Haha. It’s an awful place acoustically.
 

dmutter

Member
Messages
3,770
Last time I was at Municipal was for Van Halen in the late 90’s! Haha. It’s an awful place acoustically.
Possible they have made any improvements to it in the past 20 yrs?

My fav is when rock bands play at venues that house orchestras. Often times those rooms sound real nice!
 

boyce89976

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
7,756
Possible they have made any improvements to it in the past 20 yrs?

My fav is when rock bands play at venues that house orchestras. Often times those rooms sound real nice!
Highly doubtful. It’s not a venue that gets used for music much anymore, with the Ryman, Ascend Amphitheater, Bridgestone Arena as the other options... mostly WWE and monster trucks now.
 

MoonshineMan

Member
Messages
7,445
Ok I’m curious for your thoughts. After practice last night for a team that includes keys, synth, flute, strings along with drums and bass, I was thinking about I wonder whether more gain or more clean base tone in general works better to help sit in my zone in the mix versus a less dense mix (just base tone, not gain staging and such). Our teams vary week to week and I do change base tone with amp models depending on the group and of course the song and what I’m playing in general. This is also one area where I find IEMs not at all helpful. Thoughts or experiences on more or less base tone gain for a dense mix?
Listen to your heart, K. ;)
I'd have to hear it in context. If everyone is playing all the time?? Shoot, man.... Grab a 2203 and dime it. Hopefully there are ebbs and flows, dynamically, and just go with what sounds good. In my head, I hear it and think that if you're clean, you need to be fairly compressed and louder than you'd think. If you're dirty, I'd think that you don't want to overpower the band.
"Play louder, but play less." :)
That's a big band with lots going on.
Feel it out at practice. If you need to, set up a few options and try them.
For me, I've never played with strings/synth/keys (except upright piano and B3/Leslie), but when I'm getting buried in the mix, I come out with either the Beano Boost or CompCut. But we don't have a sound guy, and the amp(s) aren't mic'd.
 

JokeSmuggler

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,744
Ok I’m curious for your thoughts. After practice last night for a team that includes keys, synth, flute, strings along with drums and bass, I was thinking about I wonder whether more gain or more clean base tone in general works better to help sit in my zone in the mix versus a less dense mix (just base tone, not gain staging and such). Our teams vary week to week and I do change base tone with amp models depending on the group and of course the song and what I’m playing in general. This is also one area where I find IEMs not at all helpful. Thoughts or experiences on more or less base tone gain for a dense mix?
This is pretty much where I live. I think you can use whatever gain structure you want as long as you can find your spot. Usually means paring down to single notes and dyads more often, and higher up the neck generally. Nothing is off limits but it’s a lot easier to find your space that way. I go from clean to mean depending on the song, no reason you can’t use even fuzz if it suits the feel. I’m often surprised at how ugly the stem track tones are for a lot of the orchestral stuff we do. Seems like everybody in the 90s-00s used a dimed DS-1 lol.
 

boyce89976

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
7,756
I’m often surprised at how ugly the stem track tones are for a lot of the orchestral stuff we do. Seems like everybody in the 90s-00s used a dimed DS-1 lol.
This^

I find it a little shocking how gnarly some stems sound isolated, but in the mix they work great.

I agree, Josh. I think in those instances it’s really important to listen to the other instruments in your sonic space and try to play around them instead of right on top of them. That may mean fewer notes, playing up in the dusty half, or supporting chords down low.
 

cjm254

Member
Messages
1,303
Ok I’m curious for your thoughts. After practice last night for a team that includes keys, synth, flute, strings along with drums and bass, I was thinking about I wonder whether more gain or more clean base tone in general works better to help sit in my zone in the mix versus a less dense mix (just base tone, not gain staging and such). Our teams vary week to week and I do change base tone with amp models depending on the group and of course the song and what I’m playing in general. This is also one area where I find IEMs not at all helpful. Thoughts or experiences on more or less base tone gain for a dense mix?
You need to take out your IEMs, walk into the middle of the room (with that wireless), and get a good listen. You can make a much more informed decision if you hear the mix. I would think with the keys and flute holding down the clean sounds, you may want some grit at the minimum.

I spent an hour and a half yesterday with our WL and Sound Engineer dialing in his Helix and my Stomp tones so that we sit well together. It takes a lot of patience and listening/tweaking. we played and the engineer would stop us, and actually walk up to our editors and change level, cabs, mics, mic placement (he's a professional, we're spoiled). I went through a Deluxe model, Fawn, Matchless, Lonestar, and an Archon (for those glassy cleans). while the WL went through his patches. We agreed that it was so helpful, that we were going to do it again, and include more of the team. But now our guitars sound great together instead of stepping on each other.

It took time, but it was worth it. If you can work it out, I highly recommend it.
 

kdm1218

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,117
You need to take out your IEMs, walk into the middle of the room (with that wireless), and get a good listen. You can make a much more informed decision if you hear the mix. I would think with the keys and flute holding down the clean sounds, you may want some grit at the minimum.

I spent an hour and a half yesterday with our WL and Sound Engineer dialing in his Helix and my Stomp tones so that we sit well together. It takes a lot of patience and listening/tweaking. we played and the engineer would stop us, and actually walk up to our editors and change level, cabs, mics, mic placement (he's a professional, we're spoiled). I went through a Deluxe model, Fawn, Matchless, Lonestar, and an Archon (for those glassy cleans). while the WL went through his patches. We agreed that it was so helpful, that we were going to do it again, and include more of the team. But now our guitars sound great together instead of stepping on each other.

It took time, but it was worth it. If you can work it out, I highly recommend it.
Yeah, I do need to do that especially now that I have my Helix back and am really working on getting things dialed in how I like them. I never get to play with our other EG so having to be concerned with complementing tones is not something we have to figure out right now. We have played electric together maybe 2-3 times ever in 6 years in our building, and when we do we just talk per song which of us will play lead or rhythm or do more swell stuff or whatever. Just doesn’t work with scheduling to pair us together.

My challenges are that two teams are never the same instrument mix and even amongst 4 keys players they all play style wise very differently. So even what may work with one team or one specific keys player may not work as well for another. And then with the team mixes too I may play rhythm with one team but more lead stuff on the same song with a different makeup. I have the most fun when I get to play lots of higher (lower? I never know... fret 7-14 zone) on the neck inversions, dyads, single notes, etc. But other times I’m very much rhythm, full sound space with full open chords, chug some power chords, etc. Whatever the team and songs need that week. But it makes the tones also a revolving thing.

Your sound guy sounds awesome. We definitely don’t have that. We don’t even have a sound tech at practice- all but two of our rotating ones are also on the worship team so if it was required to be at practice nights they’d never have a night off.
 

Kylote

Member
Messages
4,595
I mostly play at small churches with semi-pro sound systems and volunteer sound techs. Typically they get grief from everybody. From the "it's too loud" old lady types to the "I can't hear my husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend/etc." play. They don't need any more people complaining. Do what you can to make their life easier.

I learned long ago just to worry about hearing myself and have the other musicians hear what they need from me. I know how to mix and have helped techs with levels and gain staging. But as far as "fighting" for a place in the mix, not my job. I find it a bit disappointing really when someone on stage is complaining about FOH. Makes me wonder why they are there.
Maybe it is me just being self-centered, but when I am inaudible (or previously documented, actually muted the entire service), I wonder why I am there as well. A week of consistent rehearsing for no one to hear me and for me to add nothing to the sound. And in the case of being muted, not even adding to the mix. Not adding anything musically, just a body on stage.

Now to your point, I have learned to just worry about me and leave FOH to the sound tech. My level of discourse is I send out the recordings every week after I get home from service and may include some notes on my thoughts of the mix, but Sunday morning I just worry about me. During the service I am just focused on worship and leading the congregation, it is just usually when I get home to trim up the recordings that I :facepalm

But luckily I have a short memory and the next Sunday I just play and worship and hope for the best.
 

kdm1218

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,117
I mostly play at small churches with semi-pro sound systems and volunteer sound techs. Typically they get grief from everybody. From the "it's too loud" old lady types to the "I can't hear my husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend/etc." play. They don't need any more people complaining. Do what you can to make their life easier.

I learned long ago just to worry about hearing myself and have the other musicians hear what they need from me. I know how to mix and have helped techs with levels and gain staging. But as far as "fighting" for a place in the mix, not my job. I find it a bit disappointing really when someone on stage is complaining about FOH. Makes me wonder why they are there.
Maybe it is me just being self-centered, but when I am inaudible (or previously documented, actually muted the entire service), I wonder why I am there as well. A week of consistent rehearsing for no one to hear me and for me to add nothing to the sound. And in the case of being muted, not even adding to the mix. Not adding anything musically, just a body on stage.

Now to your point, I have learned to just worry about me and leave FOH to the sound tech. My level of discourse is I send out the recordings every week after I get home from service and may include some notes on my thoughts of the mix, but Sunday morning I just worry about me. During the service I am just focused on worship and leading the congregation, it is just usually when I get home to trim up the recordings that I :facepalm

But luckily I have a short memory and the next Sunday I just play and worship and hope for the best.
There is definitely a balance between these two. Really comes down to attitude- in this realm one should not be constantly complaining to your sound techs about not being able to hear in FOH, but muted guitar when there are drums, bass, piano, and guitar isn’t ok either. We all understand and know challenges and sometimes shortcomings of volunteer techs with little or no training, and those people are as a whole also probably not anywhere near as into their serving area as we gear nerds are, and even if they are interested in learning more I can see how trying to learn sound tech stuff by reading and YouTube would only get you so far.
 

Playpunk

Member
Messages
1,722
I mostly play at small churches with semi-pro sound systems and volunteer sound techs. Typically they get grief from everybody. From the "it's too loud" old lady types to the "I can't hear my husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend/etc." play. They don't need any more people complaining. Do what you can to make their life easier.

I learned long ago just to worry about hearing myself and have the other musicians hear what they need from me. I know how to mix and have helped techs with levels and gain staging. But as far as "fighting" for a place in the mix, not my job. I find it a bit disappointing really when someone on stage is complaining about FOH. Makes me wonder why they are there.
As someone who is in overall leadership of the music portion of the worship services, I can confirm that there are many competing interests in mixing live music for a church. When things are mixed and EQ'd well, even at high volumes, there are few complaints at my church.

If an instrument is mixed too high (for instance, acoustic drums) people complain. If something is too sharp or treble heavy, EQ wise, folks complain. Tuning our snare drum deeper and smackier has really helped our overall mix.

But that's kind of beside the point: if your sound techs are incompetent get rid of them. Seriously. I would take, 100% of the time, a mix that I earball during rehearsal (even without my guitar in it), than a mix someone who loves the Gaithers puts together on a Sunday morning.

A good base mix can be tweaked a little bit but letting a typical know-nothing church volunteer sit down at an X32 is like letting a toddler fly a 737: There will be screaming, there will be terror, and no survivors..
 

kdm1218

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,117
Man, Stopped off at Lark Guitars in San Antonio this weekend whilst visiting my folks for the holiday. WOW. What a place. Picked up an SP compressor.
Lark is guitar heaven. It’s a good thing I don’t live close to San Antonio... I’d want to “drop by” way too frequently.
 

Spec

Member
Messages
910
...
But that's kind of beside the point: if your sound techs are incompetent get rid of them. Seriously. I would take, 100% of the time, a mix that I earball during rehearsal (even without my guitar in it), than a mix someone who loves the Gaithers puts together on a Sunday morning.
...

You may have missed the bit about me playing in small churches with volunteer type sound guys. Get what you get... Heck someone who loves the Gaithers probably has a more developed sense of a mix than some guy that thinks a pad droning in the background is essential.

Personally I think that the move toward "pro" production does more to isolate the worship team from the congregation and tends to transform it into a concert rather than a shared experience. But that's just me...
 




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