Paid in Full upfront. Now wait 4 months or more?

voodoosound

Funk & Grooven member
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I would just like to say I don't agree with this practice. Not pointing the finger at anyone specific. BUt no other business I know of can get away with this practice. So with that said why is this becoming a growing trend among amp builders? I have no problem with paying 50% upfront but 100% for backorders is not acceptable.

What do you think?
 

scottl

Member
Messages
17,065
I agree. In fact, 25% is plenty. 25% more when you are ready to be assembled. Balance on completion. Too many people getting jacked by irresponsible builders who are using the deposit as a source of income.

I would just like to say I don't agree with this practice. Not pointing the finger at anyone specific. BUt no other business I know of can get away with this practice. So with that said why is this becoming a growing trend among amp builders? I have no problem with paying 50% upfront but 100% for backorders is not acceptable.

What do you think?
 

voodoosound

Funk & Grooven member
Gold Supporting Member
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6,167
I agree. In fact, 25% is plenty. 25% more when you are ready to be assembled. Balance on completion. Too many people getting jacked by irresponsible builders who are using the deposit as a source of income.
Agreed! I thought there was same trade law about it being illegal to sell non existant inventory at full price?
 
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2,931
That sure smells. I've heard too many of these stories. While 99% of small amp builders are very reputable, that 1% can kill them by doing this sort of mess.

What incentive to they have then to make a deadline?

EP
 
Messages
64
Being a retail owner I can see from the cash flow standpoint that this practice is great for the business but a bummer for the buyer. 50% down should be sufficient since that basically covers the cost of components and probably the build expenses too.
 

voodoosound

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6,167
Being a retail owner I can see from the cash flow standpoint that this practice is great for the business but a bummer for the buyer. 50% down should be sufficient since that basically covers the cost of components and probably the build expenses too.
If 50% can't cover the costs of the build there is a serious problem with the business model.
 

Guitar Josh

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18,844
Scott just wrote a long post about this. It's a sticky. I agree with him.
 

freaksho

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4,001
I paid 100% up front for a pedal that was listed to take 6 weeks for delivery. After waiting for 8 weeks without receiving the pedal, I contacted the company and was informed that there was now a 12 week wait. At 12 weeks, still no pedal. I contacted the company again and was told it would go out in 1-3 days. Two weeks later, still no pedal. That got me pissed. I told the owner to cancel the order and refund my money immediately. That took nearly two weeks. I got a BS email about how honest he was but after 4 instances of dishonesty, that just didn't wash. If anyone wants to know the name of the company, I will be glad to share it with you.
wow, that just sucks. glad you got your money back. jesus.
 

freaksho

Silver Supporting Member
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4,001
don't we (as customers) have the power to control this practice? if you don't like the terms, don't pay. set a limit of 50% upfront or buy elsewhere. no one's forcing you to do it.

(obviously a broken promise like the bosstone's experience is a different story)
 

fullerplast

Senior Member
Messages
6,781
I agree. In fact, 25% is plenty. 25% more when you are ready to be assembled. Balance on completion. Too many people getting jacked by irresponsible builders who are using the deposit as a source of income.
+1. If you sign up to 100% terms, it's nobody's fault but yours. 100% payment removes both incentive and leverage, and practically guarantees a 100% loss if "disaster" strikes.
 

voodoosound

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6,167
Actually, Scotts thread talks about people whining about getting ripped off. Not the topic here. I have not gotten ripped off and don't intend to. As I stated at the begining of this thread I have no problem paying money upfront or even waiting for a year or 3. If it's something I want.

No one should have an issue with a 50% deposit for a custom build. Everyone should have a problem with 100% upfront on anything that is not complete and ready to ship.
 

rooster

Member
Messages
2,119
I generally don't take any money down to start a build, but I want it paid in full when I ship it.

rooster.
 

voodoosound

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6,167
don't we (as customers) have the power to control this practice? if you don't like the terms, don't pay. set a limit of 50% upfront or buy elsewhere. no one's forcing you to do it.

(obviously a broken promise like the bosstone's experience is a different story)
Exactly! this is the point of my thread. Do not allow yourself to get sucked into this by anyone. THis is a bad practice on both parts as even someone with integrity can get a little lazy. Why not when they already have your money.
 

guitarvc

Member
Messages
1,539
Occasionally I build kits for friends and acquaintances and require that they pay for the kit in advance, and charge for the labor upon delivery. I think that whatever the two parties agree to is fair, as long as both parties do as they promise. I have paid in full for amps in advance before, I dont worry about it because I have allways dealt with reputable builders.

Most of these boutique amp builders aren't making a whole lot. Even the greatest ones like Soldano, Egnater, Bogner etc...aren't making very much. I'll bet that those of us with excellewnt jobs are doing better financially than the builders who make our amps and instruments.

I looked into a career change b ecause my love of high end amps and guitars, and found that even if I was extremely successful, it would be difficult to make a 6 digit income. I say, we should cut these guys some slack, as they have to deal with quite a few flakes as well as the honorable musicians/customers.

I choose to be fairly generous with the builders that I have dealt with, and in return they all have been outstanding to deal with. Egnater is one of them who have bent over backwards to offer me great service. I almost had to force them to take full payment in advance for my Mod 50 as my financial circumstances at that time required me to do so in order to declare it as an business expense for 2007 taxes. It is the best amp I have ever owned. When a couple weeks ago my reverb unit stopped working, they sent me a new one without question. Thats great service!
 

freaksho

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
4,001
Exactly! this is the point of my thread. Do not allow yourself to get sucked into this by anyone. THis is a bad practice on both parts as even someone with integrity can get a little lazy. Why not when they already have your money.
cool. well, i hope your efforts with this thread have some impact on the issue. i, for one, will remember this discussion if i ever find myself in this position.

BUT,
i bet guys like Paul Cochrane and the Klon pedal maker (forget his name) will always get away with just about anything they want. as i understand they dont do this crap, but they probably could if they wanted to, having a unique and highly regarded product that is in great demand puts the maker in the position of power.
 

Guitar Josh

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Actually, Scotts thread talks about people whining about getting ripped off. Not the topic here.
The underlying tone of his thread is that REGARDLESS, there is simply no reason to pay in full without a definitive delivery date. That goes to the heart of the topic here.
 

Crusty

Senior Member
Messages
330
While not as expensive as an amp, I require payment up front, but I never have, nor will I ever, burn a customer.

The reason I require payment up front is because *I* have been burned by customers before. I do a lot of "one-off" stuff that other builders won't touch, because I don't work from templates.

When a customer orders something from me, then decides they don't wanna pay, I'm stuck with inventory I possibly can't sell, and DEFINITELY don't have room to store.

In addition to that, my time is more precious to me than anything. I have very little of it, and when I waste a bunch of it building a cabinet for someone who then decides they don't want it, materials aren't the only thing I'm out.

So here it is, the builders side of the story.
 

voodoosound

Funk & Grooven member
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
6,167
While not as expensive as an amp, I require payment up front, but I never have, nor will I ever, burn a customer.

The reason I require payment up front is because *I* have been burned by customers before. I do a lot of "one-off" stuff that other builders won't touch, because I don't work from templates.

When a customer orders something from me, then decides they don't wanna pay, I'm stuck with inventory I possibly can't sell, and DEFINITELY don't have room to store.

In addition to that, my time is more precious to me than anything. I have very little of it, and when I waste a bunch of it building a cabinet for someone who then decides they don't want it, materials aren't the only thing I'm out.

So here it is, the builders side of the story.
50% non refundable deposit is not enough to cover your costs of the build in the event someone flakes on you? I find that very hard to believe. I am very familiar with running a custom production based business. 50% was always enought to cover parts and labor. If it's not the business model needs to be re-evaluated.
 




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