Palmer NEW PDI-03 Joe Bonamassa

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by rburkard, Feb 10, 2015.

  1. rburkard

    rburkard Gold Supporting Member

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    Just received the new Palmer PDI -03 JB last week. Compared to the classic 19" PDI -03 unit, I like the new one better, even without having to engage the JB mid boost options switch. The "normal" setting is now warmer and much more usable than it is on the classic version, where I always wished for a sound in between the "mellow" and "normal" settings. Normal was too treble and mellow way too warm. The "deep" option, while still adding a convincing 4x12cab low end punch, sounds less boomy and is much more usable than on the classic unit I have. The two "JB" settings really bring out the mids and make the signal for PA or studio recording much more usable without the need of using any or hardly any additional EQ. The signal and sound are simply "perfect" IMHO. Compared to the Mesa Cab Clone, the new Palmer beats it by hands down in terms of speaker simulated sound, and the Cab Clone is a very good solution to begin with already. Of course it does not provide a resistive load like the old Palmer PDI-03 or the Cab Clone, but I don't care for these loads anyways. They sound so dull and are lacking all the dynamics that a real speaker or a properly designed resistive load provides. While I am using Ownhammer IRs for recording in my DAW, for live use I can't think of a better sounding solution. It is better than the Torpedo Live, even when loaded with Ownhammer Mix IRs. The sound is more direct and it sounds so natural, big and fat but also providing the necessary midrange boost to cut through a mix. Absolutely stellar sounding and working unit.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2015
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  2. djd100

    djd100 Member

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    If you want the Torpedo LIVE to sound exactly like your new Palmer, just make an IR of it and load it into the Torpedo.

    If you want the Palmer to sound like all the cabs/speakers/mics/pre's etc that the LIVE can sound like you're simply out of luck.

    The LIVE also contains a high quality reactive load, 5 band EQ, excellent modeled tube power amp sims, and complete MIDI control.

     
  3. rburkard

    rburkard Gold Supporting Member

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    No. This won't work since you have ADDA conversion in the chain causing latency and limiting dynamics. You can absolutely " feel" the difference while playing and comparing both solutions. Using IRs and a straight uncompensated line signal from the amp to the mixing board is a different story altogether. Depending on the chosen IRs, it sounds best, but you can't use this solution for direct monitoring either due to the very audible latency. I use the Palmer now for playing and monitoring and the IRs for playback and the final recording. Best of both worlds. Using the Torpedo for recording also does not yield the same audio results compared to just using a straight line signal from the amp into the board and adding the same IRs ( Ownhammer mixes in my case) that I use in the Torpedo Live. This is all due to the multiple ADDA conversion and the problems caused during the process. The digital board is enough to deal with already.
     
  4. djd100

    djd100 Member

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    Torpedo latency is a less than 2ms (1.9ms RTL), which is the same as moving a little less than 2 feet away from your speaker (imperceptible to humans).

    The CAB/LIVE A/D and D/A are 24bit 96K SR with a S/N of over 100db, so there is no loss of dynamics regarding electric guitar (excepting when using the tube power amp sims which do compress the signal as desired?). The bigger Torpedos have even better converter specs BTW.

    If latency and dynamics problems were encountered your gain staging and recording setup was to blame, not the Torpedo.

    The Torpedo LIVE has a high quality reactive load, which loads a tube amp much more accurately than a resistive load, so it does feel different than the Palmer, though closer to what the amp feels like when loaded by real speakers. If SPL restrictions allow you can also use the LIVE's features while loading the amp with it's speakers too (in which case feel is identical to the amp and speaker combination).

    You can use the Torpedo in any musical situation with none of the issues you wrote of below (lots of people do it every day)!

    It's fine to prefer the Palmer as they're fine units in their own right and it's just personal preference, but it's wrong to imply that the LIVE is somehow inferior like you did, when the fact is it can do everything the Palmer does and a whole lot more.


     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2015
  5. shredmiyagi

    shredmiyagi Member

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    Yeah I dunno, I had an 03 rack back in the day and have an 09 DI box in my gig bag, but personally I find the Palmer to be an OK solution whereas an IR makes it breathe and feel like air's being pushed.

    I'm skeptical that the JB blows away the Torpedo Live... Eh we'll see. Finally ordered an EPSi. It's gonna go head-to-head against my PDI-09 in FOH/live settings with my Zoom G3.
     
  6. rburkard

    rburkard Gold Supporting Member

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    Just compare. If you can't compare you should not make assumptions. Playing back through monitors with the Torpedo live gives you always this unsatisfying feeling of not being directly connected to your strings. With the Palmer you are really connected like you are with an amp guitar cab setup. BTW. I tested this both with a real cab connected in both cases in the recording room and listed solely in the control room. The Palmer gave me a satisfying experience and I could easily play this way without missing something. The Torpedo does not give me this experience and leaves me very unsatisfied. Numbers don' t count. Just listen and make your own judgement. Not trying to bash a product here, but to give people options that are more satisfying for less cash.
     
  7. nicolasrivera

    nicolasrivera Silver Supporting Member

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    Im sorry dude, but this is a problem you are having with your setup because with my torpedo unit and with a custom IR i made from my actual cab its exactly the same as if i was monitoring it live with a mic.

    In the end its the user that makes or break a good product, if the user dont know what they are doing or how to do it propertly then its not the units fault at all.

    IMHO.
     
  8. djd100

    djd100 Member

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    1.9ms latency is not detectable by humans, so your latency troubles are else where in your setup, that is a fact!

    The fact that you personally prefer the Palmer means nothing when comparing the two either, aside that you spent your money on the Palmer and like it's sound.

    Comparing specs does mean something though as they're measurable and repeatable, so the numbers do matter.

    No point in arguing, everyone should use what they like so enjoy the Palmer even though it's tremendously limited compared to the LIVE.



     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2015
  9. nicolasrivera

    nicolasrivera Silver Supporting Member

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    This reminds me when i bought the SD custom shop JB pickups that i still have, they sound great, but far from the more organic PAF sound i get from my boutique winders.

    Sooner or later someone is going to do an IR of this Palmer unit and every one will have the same sound, its the nature of the IR word.
     
  10. rgys

    rgys Member

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    Nicolas,

    I do understand what rburkhard is saying, because I've already made an IR out of my PDI09 (using Voxengo Deconvolver).
    And using this IR in my EPSI (which has lower latency then the Torpedo), makes it sound "almost" the same, but not 100%. But there are a lot of other factors to consider, like the fact that you are already putting a sine wave into the palmer to get your IR recorded: that's already a sine wave generation by a PC (which does not generate the same level output as a guitar), and the fact that the generated output from the PDI is going to the line or mic input of your soundcard to record the output for the deconvolver is another (next to the fact that inputs and outputs on soundcards are different as well).
    And then there is the difference when using it: the PDI09 can handle input ranges from low (line level) to high (amp signal), and I definitely hear it responds a bit different depending on the output level of my POD HD (which is how I used is, not with a regular amp). I do like the PDI09 "in real" better then the recorded IR (but I suppose it could have been just the other way around as well). You could probably get a better IR then the way I did it, but I don't think you will ever get it 100% the same.


    Rbukhard, I'm very interested in this pedal.
    Before my EPSI (which I like better now since I got the Ownhammers - but not before...) I used the PDI09 with my POD HD as my "go to" setup (POD HD on stack front output setting going into the PDI09).
    Did you ever do this? I very much like the "high mid" sounds coming out of the PDI09 in combination with the POD (great for solo's), but found the bass response not "clear/lively" enough. Did you already try the PDI03 JB with a POD? How does it compare to the PDI09?
     
  11. guitarstar2005

    guitarstar2005 Member

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    I used the Palmers for years. It works for you then stick with it.

    Once I really got the hang of the power of The Two Notes Studio and Live units, it opened worlds that the Palmer can't do.
     
  12. nicolasrivera

    nicolasrivera Silver Supporting Member

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    absolutly... beside the tone i like from JB is not from the Palmer unit alone, his tone is a combination of many things.
     
  13. rburkard

    rburkard Gold Supporting Member

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    Haven't tried it, but used my PDI-09 several years ago together with a Weber Mass to be able to increase midrange frequencies that were missing in my opinion. This worked quite well and sounded pretty convincing. The PDI did not offer the "deep" option. This is why I got the PDI -03 again after I owned two of them in the late 80th already. However when I got my Torpedo Live, I discontinued using my Palmer PDI -03 because I liked the options and flexibility of the Torpedo, but soon figured out the disadvantages in terms of dynamic playing with this unit. BTW I always used real cabs and did not care for the resistive load of the Torpedo at all. Not usable for me. Integrating Ownhammer IRs made the Torpedo Live much more fun and usable, but using the same Ownhammer IRs just in my DAW, they sound better than with the Torpedo Live. In direct comparison between the new Palmer and the Torpedo live, the dynamic feel and impact on my playing is significant for me. So significant that I am certain not needing the Torpedo anymore. The new Palmer sounds better than the older Palmer units flor sure. Palmer really hit it with this one. For people who use lots of compression and very large amounts of distortion, the dynamic disadvantages of the Torpedo might not be a noticeable factor though. You know, tastes differ.

    http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/arti...rerin-Oh-Gott-die-kann-ich-nie-vergessen.html
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2015
  14. djd100

    djd100 Member

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    As to latency, the Epsi measures the same as the Torpedo LIVE/CAB at 1.9ms RTL, regardless of their advertising which claims a whopping 0.4ms advantage LOL.

    The new Palmer is the same as the old Palmer except that it has another EQ option via the "JB" switch (more mids).

    I think they're just trying to avoid losing low end market share to Mesa's CabClone.

    These low end analog cab sims are not even in the same market space as the Torpedo LlVE.
     
  15. rburkard

    rburkard Gold Supporting Member

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    Listen and don't measure. Use your ears and you will find out.
     
  16. djd100

    djd100 Member

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    I do and have for 30 plus years as a pro.

    There's no possible way any analog cab sim can compare to convolution when used for cab/speaker/mic simulation, it's simply impossible. That said, they can certainly make good generic guitar sounds that aren't directly related to any cab/speaker/mic, so if your ears like it use it because the golden rule is "if it sounds good it is good", but don't post nonsense about it being somehow "better" than other higher end professional convolution solutions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
  17. Stef_herbuel

    Stef_herbuel Member

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    i was searching info on the new pdi03 jb and google sent me here :)
    i have the pdi 09 , and pdi 03 and just ordered yesterday the pdi03 jb.

    i answer on this topic because for some reason i have the same experience as rburkard considering latency, an/na conversion.i did tried ,and it's just my experience, in a band situation (= high volume and lots of instruments) palmer and IR (differents one of course).
    and found that palmer sounded more organic, "in your face", ""direct" and cutted way better into the mix for the sounds i was after.

    plus i'm used to zero latency on my board and the palmer has this "direct" sound that i did'nt found in any IR
    i found that it sound less "produced" and "hifi" and fit more in mixes where the are a lot of instruments.
    i think it may depend on lots of factor, musical style etc but palmer and analog filters still works great for some of us ..
    :)

     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015
  18. djd100

    djd100 Member

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    Make an quality IR of the Palmer and your IR Loader will sound relatively identical.

    Note that 1.8ms of latency is unnoticeable to humans (it's the same as moving 2 feet farther away from your speaker cab).

    What you're really saying is that you prefer the EQ curve of the Palmer in a live setting (vs the IR's you have used). Whatever works is best of course, and if that's the only sound you'll ever desire then the Palmer is a great solution for you, though if you prefer that sound plus an unlimited number of other sounds then convolution is the solution.

     
  19. Stef_herbuel

    Stef_herbuel Member

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    Well first of all, what i will say is not the "universal truth" it's just my opinion, and it's only about "sound" so i will give my opinion on why i don't agree, but if we can discuss like gentlemen it would be cool :)

    if i sample 100 gigas of a steinway piano in a computer it will sound almost the same as the real when you'll hear it in the PA , but what about the player and the pleasure ? what i want to say, is that i really like the "immediate" and "organic" sound and feel that give me the palmer and a "palmer IR" doesn't give me that at all...
    i had the torpedo vb101 and while it was really cool , i prefer the palmer (with eq placed after to fine tune i admit) after lot of tests live.but it may juste be the sound i'm after ...(jeff beck / mike landau / doyle bramhall II /angus young etc)

    maybe, but there's 2 things to consider imho :
    1 : latency with an/na isn't the only thing to consider, i have kind of "scott henderson/eric johnson" syndrom lol every an/na does a really bad thing to the sound in term of "feeling" , to me when my sound become 010101 it does suck a lot of things...
    and yes sometimes i think it's in my head so i do myself some blind testing with ab box and friend.i can always tell the difference.not saying that it's better or make me a better player or my ears are gold , just it's like that....

    2 : my brain , with this 0 latency (like the real world) is used to hear 10 ms latency when a thing is at 10 feet , when he hears suddenly 12 ms , there's a pb of coordination :) lol
    i hear you when you say it's not noticable , but when you play all the time with no latency at all except the "natural" one , it's hard to add one , even if it's really small.
    i hear you there too, but what i like too is the "less is more" thing.a palmer with an eq (= almost like rock crusher rivera if your prefer) is like ONE cab voiced like you want.And i only need one cab live .
    for recording i would choose IR because palmer sound too "direct" , but for live...
    i know we are a small % to think like that and prefer the "old" way for cab sim, but IR doesn't work for me..
    BTW i'm open to digital technology , all my guitar are roland gk kit equipped (even the custom shop !) , i have th vg99/gr55 , had the axe fx ultra, II, kemper etc.
    but for guitar sound, seems i'm old school
     
  20. gtrnstuff

    gtrnstuff Member

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    Who says (I guess I should ask, "where's the study that proves..") humans can't detect 1.9ms latency?
    Especially if it's an additional 1.9ms on top of 2 or 3 ms in the audio interface being used for the monitor path.
    If you're used to close mic'd amps thru analog path into headphones, those added milliseconds really feel pretty awful, if you're like me and sensitive to it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015

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