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Pat Martino's "bag"

Cuthbert

Member
Messages
2,396
I'm working my way through Pat's "Linear expressions". Tghe way his mind works is staggering. Can anyone sum up his use of minor scale substitutions in a paragraph or so? It sure doesn't sound like he's running minor scales over chords. Does he leave certain notes out based on the chord he is playing over? Man that cat is deep...
 

Neer

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
12,632
He adds chromatic notes to the dorian scales, but he also substitutes dorian scales for each other--in other words, instead of just playing E dorian over A7, he will play G dorian, etc.
 

jbraun002

Member
Messages
791
AFAIK (from that book and some others, as well as other transcriptions), Pat doesn't think in scales, he thinks in lines, and so he'll play around with minor _lines_. And that's certainly the way he talks as well (at least, on his instructional DVDs and his books IIRC).

IMHO, under analysis his lines tend to look very dorian, with chromatic ideas, melodic minor ideas, harmonic minor ideas, pentatonic ideas (occasionally), and arpeggios.

My hunch is that Pat has an awesome ear. He's said that when he sits down to practice he'll often just come up with lines pleasing to his ear. I mean, he knows the theory and fretboard, but I don't think that's the conscious driver of how he comes up with the stuff he plays for the most part. He's oft compared it to being a child and playing with a toy, and finding joy in the moment. And then he takes the ideas he comes up with in play/practice and applies them when playing with others.

[Edit] Btw, if that distinction sounds weird (the distinction between scales and lines), think of a parallel distinction: using arpeggios versus using scales. Most folks use both, but you can approach improvising consciously by trying to think in terms of arpeggios. You'll end up with the same notes if you use enough extensions, and you can even think of a 13th chord as the summation of the scale, and vice versa, and thus arpeggios. But... it's all about the _model_ you're using to approach improvisation. The model you use (or don't use) will end up shaping how you think about what you're playing, and end up influencing what you play, even if it's the same set of notes as a "scale".

Same is true of lines (I think).
 

Clifford-D

Senior Member
Messages
17,047
Here's a good example of how Pat navigates a Gm

I feel the F# note creates a forward thrust from the ealier F note, forward motion
I see that in his playing often
This is why he calls this minor line an "activity" instead of dorian or aeolian, it's not that confined.

Gm
--------------------------------
-------------------------------3
-----------------------2-5-2-3--
-------------3---2-4-5----------
-------3-4-5---5----------------
-3-5-6--------------------------
 

willyboy

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
3,295
from everything I've read and seen of his instructional videos it's a gross oversimplification to think of anything he does as Dorian scale related. Way too much chromaticism and other stuff going on in his playing to define the sounds he uses in that way IMO.
 

guitarjazz

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
22,165
I'm working my way through Pat's "Linear expressions". Tghe way his mind works is staggering. Can anyone sum up his use of minor scale substitutions in a paragraph or so? It sure doesn't sound like he's running minor scales over chords. Does he leave certain notes out based on the chord he is playing over? Man that cat is deep...
There is a summation of his 'minor sub' technique in the book. Here's my Cliff's Notes version:
Use A minor lines for:
C major
D7
F#mi7b5
Ab7alt
One thing I've noticed about hearing Pat live is that he doesn't sound too different to me than he did when he was 17 on El Hombre.
Also any discussion of Pat's playing should include mention of his teacher, Dennis Sandole. Sandole taught John Coltrane, Martino, and Jon Heringtion among many others. Check out Sandole's Guitar Lore book, if it's still in print.
 

Clifford-D

Senior Member
Messages
17,047
In Sacred Geometry
Pat looks at dim7 and augmented triads as the foundation of his thinking
Dim7 changes to a dominant chord by lowering ANY tone
That means a Gdim7 can generate an Eb7, A7, C#7, and an F#7 chord
take the dim7 up symetrically by minor 3rds and find the same 4 dominant
chords in four different locations, pretty clever.

The aug triad works the same but yields the Major triad AND the minor triad.
raise any tone and get a minor triad, lower any tone and get a major triad

The diminished and the augmented shapes act as parents to the
iim7 V7 Imaj7 progression and others.
 
Last edited:

anderson110

Member
Messages
478
IMO, try to emulate the sounds you hear before "Big Money, No Whammies!"

That's not entirely fair, I'm sure, but I don't really get his thing.
 

dewey decibel

Member
Messages
10,693
In Sacred Geometry
Pat looks at dim7 and augmented triads as the foundation of his thinking
Dim7 changes to a dominant chord by lowering ANY tone
That means a Gdim7 can generate an Eb7, A7, C#7, and an F#7 chord
take the dim7 up symetrically by minor 3rds and find the same 4 dominant
chords in four different locations, pretty clever.

The aug triad works the same but yields the Major triad AND the minor triad.
raise any tone and get a minor triad, lower any tone and get a major triad

The diminished and the augmented shapes act as parents to the
iim7 V7 Imaj7 progression and others.

That's what I was going to add, along with the minor over everything thing I think he takes a lot from this diminished approach. He takes it a step further though, rather than Gdmin generating 4 dom7 chords, he'll take a dom7 chord, generate the dim chord (a half step up) and in turn 3 more dom7 chords. Basically the same thing, but by looking at it in this way it gives you more sounds. In essence he could be thinking A7 (or Emin for that matter) when the chord is actually Eb7 (E melodic minor, see how that works?). Some of the other guys (like Zucker) can shed more light on this stuff than I can, I mostly like the stuff where he's just trying to be Wes.
 

binge

Member
Messages
1,486
Here's some info taken from the Wolf Marshall Pat Martino Signature Licks book:

Minor Chords

Minor 7 - Dorian from the 5th degree / Dorian from the root / Dorian from the 4th degree / Minor maj7 arpeggio from the 5th degree / Blues scale from the root.

Minor 7b5 - Dorian from the minor 3rd degree / Dorian from the b5th degree.

Minor 9 - Dorian from the 2nd degree / Minor arpeggio from the minor 3rd degree / Minor pentatonic from the minor 3rd degree / Hexatonic from the 4th degree.


Major Chords

Maj7#11 - Dorian from the 6th degree.

Maj7 - Dorian from the 6th degree.

Maj9 - Dorian from the 6th degree / minor 7 arpeggios from the major 3rd.


Dominant and Altered Dominant Chords

Dom 7th - Dorian from the 5th degree / Dorian from the minor 3rd / Dorian from the major 3rd.

Dom 7#9 - Dorian from the b6th degree / Dorian from the 7th degree / Dorian from the 2nd degree / Dorian from the b2nd degree.

Dom 7b9 - Dorian from the 7th degree / Harmonic minor from the 4th degree / Minor pentatonic from the 2nd degree / Blues scale from the 2nd degree.

Dom 7#9#5 - Dorian from the b2nd degree / Dorian from the b6th degree.

Dom 7b9#5 - Dorian from the b6th degree / Dorian from the b2nd degree / Harmonic minor from the 4th degree.

Dom 7#9b5 - Dorian from the b2nd degree.

Dom 13th - Dorian from the 5th degree / Dorian from the b6th degree / Dorian from the
2nd degree / Dorian from the major 3rd degree / minor 7 arpeggios from the 7th degree / minor 7th arpeggios from the 2nd degree.

Dom 9#11 - Dorian from the 5th degree.

Dom 9th - Dorian from the 5th degree / Dorian from the b2nd degree.


Augmented Chords

Aug chord - Melodic minor from the 6th degree.

Aug 7th - Dorian from the b6th degree / Dorian from the minor 3rd degree / Dorian from the b2nd degree / Dorian from the 7th degree.
 

Balok

Member
Messages
3,564
In Sacred Geometry
Pat looks at dim7 and augmented triads as the foundation of his thinking
Dim7 changes to a dominant chord by lowering ANY tone
That means a Gdim7 can generate an Eb7, A7, C#7, and an F#7 chord
take the dim7 up symetrically by minor 3rds and find the same 4 dominant
chords in four different locations, pretty clever.

The aug triad works the same but yields the Major triad AND the minor triad.
raise any tone and get a minor triad, lower any tone and get a major triad

The diminished and the augmented shapes act as parents to the
iim7 V7 Imaj7 progression and others.
I've seen this before, and it is fascinating, but how do you put it to practical use? How can this help me in a solo, or jazz blues comping?
 

jbraun002

Member
Messages
791
I've seen this before, and it is fascinating, but how do you put it to practical use? How can this help me in a solo, or jazz blues comping?
I wouldn't say it can't be useful, but I would say this: there's a huge difference between the model/approach an artist uses to explain what he/she does, and how they actually do what they do.

I'm pretty sure Martino has even said in print that the whole "conversion to minor" approach was a way of explaining what he had already come up with (in a much more circuitous fashion).

As far as the Sacred Geometry stuff - that's just what he finds fascinating/helpful. It isn't necessarily helpful to anyone else (sorry Pat) and it isn't necessarily the fastest route to even sounding like Martino (if one should desire that).
 

mleggett

Member
Messages
90
Also any discussion of Pat's playing should include mention of his teacher, Dennis Sandole. Sandole taught John Coltrane, Martino, and Jon Heringtion among many others. Check out Sandole's Guitar Lore book, if it's still in print.
I looked for that book a year or so ago, and nada less than a hundred bucks, but Amazon have it in stock now for $19.95. Needless to say, I ordered it.
 

guitarjazz

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
22,165
I looked for that book a year or so ago, and nada less than a hundred bucks, but Amazon have it in stock now for $19.95. Needless to say, I ordered it.
It's a deep one.
Now, about those books by Adolph Sandole, Dennis' bro......really.
 

Clifford-D

Senior Member
Messages
17,047
How can Diminished 7th and augmented triads, be of service in actual playing?

To me it obvious, and extremely demystifying (of the fretboard)

Pat and I think fretboard very much the same, much of the way I think fretboard
I knew before getting deeply into Pats bag. Things like the CAGED chord system were firmly in place. I had already done the jazz college thing back in the '80s,,,
It was a Guitar Player that had Matino doing a lesson, it may have been called
Sacred Geometry but I'm not sure. That was basically new to me, I loved the ideas and worked with them from then on,,,

Now I have a nice collection of Martinos books including Steve Kahns transcriptions.
One book in particular is a MUST for any Martino book collection is;
The Nature Of Guitar

Check this out, it breaks down some of Martinos concepts from The Nature Of Guitar
http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.06.12.1/mto.06.12.1.capuzzo.pdf

scroll down to pg 4. Then read the stuff above it.
 
Last edited:

Neer

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
12,632
Here's some info taken from the Wolf Marshall Pat Martino Signature Licks book:
To me, some of those choices are very strange; however, they don't sound horrible--in fact, some of them sound very good, even if the notes don't coincide with the chord.

Some examples: E7#9: Dorian from the b6 = C Dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb). There's no root, but instead a maj7 and no maj 3rd, but 4th

or Dorian from the b2 = F Dorian (F G Ab Bb C D Eb)(this one sounds nice)

Amin7: Dorian from the 5th degree= E Dorian (E F# G A B C# D). No min 3rd, but a maj 3rd.
 

projam619

Member
Messages
1,376
Here's a good example of how Pat navigates a Gm

I feel the F# note creates a forward thrust from the ealier F note, forward motion
I see that in his playing often
This is why he calls this minor line an "activity" instead of dorian or aeolian, it's not that confined.

Gm
--------------------------------
-------------------------------3
-----------------------2-5-2-3--
-------------3---2-4-5----------
-------3-4-5---5----------------
-3-5-6--------------------------
This interests me, since I noticed it as well in his "activities" found in Linear Expressions. However, I didn't look at it as "providing forward thrust", but rather as passing notes, since many of such notes (in this case, the maj 7th of G minor) are played "on the upbeat". IOW, they didn't seem to me as notes of gravity. So, I'm interested in what is meant here by "forward thrust". Maybe I have been thinking of these notes wrongly....

Here is an excellent Martino vid on minor subs. When I transcribed some of these, they changed my life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dur8uocnBY
 




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