Pedal Makers - Question

Discussion in 'Effects, Pedals, Strings & Things' started by guitarman1956, Jun 21, 2008.

  1. guitarman1956

    guitarman1956 Supporting Member

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    I've gone through several high end overdrives over the past year. You folks make some great stuff. I have noticed one thing though..Seems most of these overdrives "do not" have a mid-control. I know as for me, I would have kept a few of them - rather than turning around and selling them after I tried them out. The guitar itself is in the "mid range". The amps you are attempting to sound like all have a mid control....Why not have a mid control on your overdrive? What am I missing??????

    thanks
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2008
  2. alvagoldbook

    alvagoldbook Member

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    As a guy who makes my own pedals for myself, I prefer my dirt boxes to have NO EQ, much less a mid-control. Electronically speaking, the more pure the signal path is, the better it will sound, and the less chance of something coming out lousy. Why not put a simple EQ after your dirt box? MXR makes a 6 band that fits in the standard small MXR size.
     
  3. ClinchFX

    ClinchFX Gold Supporting Member Vendor

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    I have to admit that I think a mid control is probably more useful on a pedal than low and high tone controls, but it has to be boost/cut to cover the range of tones needed. I had fitted mid controls to a couple of my own personal pedals, but they weren't exactly what I was looking for. I was about to develop the idea further when EP-PRE orders took off and I haven't had time to get back to it.

    I believe, however, that there are only a few builders trying to build pedals that sound like an amp. Maybe that's why there are very few pedals with a full 3 way tone stack.

    Peter.
     
  4. guitarman1956

    guitarman1956 Supporting Member

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    Thanks for the responses....If a pedal has a bass and high frequency control, why would one leave out the Mid control? The guitar, like the human voice, is in the mid frequency range. Why buy an entirely separate pedal for EQ? Why not just add one more pot for Mid range..I'm not talking about a camel hump mid..I'm speaking of that "sweet singing" mid range. What would that cost?
     
  5. dsl

    dsl Member

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  6. Rock72

    Rock72 Member

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    If only the mid-control on the Silver Kiss would help you dial out the fizzy high-end :p.
     
  7. gaspedals.net

    gaspedals.net Member

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    Im sure there are several good overdrives with a 3 band EQ out there, menatone comes to mind. To answer your question though I think the idea of having bass and treble with no mids is that (at least theoretically) you can boost the lows and highs which will give you a scooped sound, or lower the lows and highs to give you a middy sound. I have had several good amps that use this principal well.

    Im of the school of leaving out as much filtering as possible. Case in point, I had a dumble clone in here and its best sound IMO was had by bypassing the tone section completely. More clarity, girth, dynamics, harmonics - just came alive.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2008
  8. Montez

    Montez Member

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    1+ on sans filters. However if I were to put a mid control, I would also want a mid shift control as well.
     
  9. guitarman1956

    guitarman1956 Supporting Member

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    That Jester looks very tasty...wonder how it does with the Classic and southern Rock...You know....R A W K
     
  10. analogmike

    analogmike Gold Supporting Member

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    I agree with the guys who like less filtering.

    The DS1 and SD9 have that big muff tone filter, we add a MIDS knob to them to filter it LESS, it let MORE of the actual tones through.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  11. soulsonic

    soulsonic Member

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    Boutique overdrives don't have mid controls because the Tube Screamer doesn't have a mid control and most of them don't know how to do anything other than copy and tweak Tube Screamers.


    There's tons of DIY pedals that have mid controls. Most of those "JFET amp emulator" type ones have the same tone control sections as the amps they're attempting to mimic.
     
  12. guitarman1956

    guitarman1956 Supporting Member

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  13. gitpicker

    gitpicker Silver Supporting Member

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    Geeeezzz! Mellow out dude! Just because someone tries to improve a circuit and (in you mind) fails, is no reason to think that you have a pathway into thier minds and can characterize them as arrogant and insecure.

    Plenty of haters in the world nowadays - no need for another....
     
  14. stratman_el84

    stratman_el84 Member

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    I think that right there is where you may be running into a major misunderstanding with many builders' design goals. If you're wanting a pedal to "sound like an amp", then you're looking for an amp modeler, be it analog or digital, rather than a distortion/OD.

    I know that when I build a pedal for myself, I'm not trying to make it "sound like an amp" at all. I have a great-sounding amp already. I'm looking to simply add more of what the amp *already has*. I don't include any EQ at all, as that's what the EQ on the amp and the guitar is for. I build the circuit to sound best over the range I normally have the guitars' and the amps' EQ set.

    I'm sorry, but if you don't have a good sounding amp, then no pedal in the world is going to help you. The amp is the last tonal filter in the signal chain before the signal is turned into sound waves, so therefor has the greatest bearing on the overall sound.

    I've found that if you have a good sounding amp, you can play a mediocre instrument through it and sound good. However, you can have the greatest-sounding instrument and/or pedal (or both) in the world, but if the amp sounds like crap so will the instrument/pedal.

    Whenever someone asks me what is the *one single thing* they can upgrade to get the most improvement in their sound, I tell them to get the best sounding amp they can afford.

    Cheers!

    Strat
     
  15. guitarman1956

    guitarman1956 Supporting Member

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    As the OP, my question is simple...where are the sweet singing mids?
     
  16. spentron

    spentron Member

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    Right, amps have their own voicing and EQ. Even a clean Fender is highly scooped, the tone controls (2 and 3 knob) don't actually allow midrange boost. So even if with a mid on a pedal, probably don't want to copy that feature.... When you boost a JCM800 with a TS, the pedal's EQ is almost the opposite of the final EQ.... A lot of pedals have a starting pre-set EQ including really drastically smoothing off the high end, and their tone controls relate specifically to that EQ. Or just oddball and heavy-handed. Sometimes this works out, you get a pedal that adds distortion and some cool EQ on one button press that is awesome in some situation. I don't make pedals much like that though because there's enough already.

    Yes, with bass and treble controls, midrange is determined by the total of the 2 knobs, high-low balance is the relative level of the 2 knobs. Adding a mid control does add something, but it is rather indirect relating to the operating point and detailed response of the bass and treble controls. A possible good combination would be tone for treble vs. bass, and a mid control, 2 knobs total.
     
  17. guitarman1956

    guitarman1956 Supporting Member

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    Every good amp has a mid control..why is that ???? Using the method in a pedal that the "sum" of rolling off bass or treble equals mid range is a complete cop out. Or, maybe all those amp makers are wrong. that Mid frequency is there for a reason...IT LETS ME (the customer) DETERMINE HOW MUCH OR HOW LITTLE MIDs "I WANT". And, not some pre-determined amout by a pedal maker. Hey, I'm very aware its all about choice....Give me a "good" pedal with a mid control that "I" control, and I'm more likely to keep it rather than re-selling it, or sending it back to the maker.
     
  18. spentron

    spentron Member

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    But the "tone stack" in these "every good" amps tends to always alter the tone in a very extreme manner. Marshall is flat at bass=treb=0 and mid=10 and also bass=0, treb=1.5, mid=4.5, according to Tone Stack Calculator. Fender is B&T=0 and then mids becomes a volume control. As soon as the knobs all get cranked, mids only slighly reduces the mammoth mid scoop. In a sense the mids is a tone bypass, so you can get the scoop or the volume, rather than only both at the same time, which could cause trouble, especially in an amp. Otherwise a cut-boost B&T topology can do many of the same tones and more. But you can't compare even that to a custom pre-set EQ especially made to complement said amp. It depends on how many knobs you want, but I wouldn't confuse an EQ made for max. flexibility with one made to emulate an amp. Or you can go the no-EQ route, or just enough to match balance, you don't need to replace anything unless you need a preamp/modeller.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2008

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