Perfect Example That Tone Is In Amp, Not Hands.

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by Dave_C, Jul 22, 2010.

  1. Dave_C

    Dave_C Member

    Messages:
    14,161
    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Just responding to a "Duh" type comment from Ed.
     
  2. Dave_C

    Dave_C Member

    Messages:
    14,161
    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Different amps are like different instruments too! Otherwise, how could you build a business selling THD amps? Why not just buy a cheap Blues Deluxe and emulate all other amps/tones you want to get with that by just manipulating it via your strings through your guitar? In fact, why not just build an amp with no knobs? If tone is in your hands, you should be able to do everything you want simply by how you play. Forget the guitar knobs too because it's all in the hands, remember?

    In any case, getting back to THD amps, there has to be *something* that differentiates THD from everything else, right? Also, why create a Uni-Valve *and* a Bi-Valve *and* a Flexi? If tone is all in the hands, why not just create *one* model?
     
  3. Dave_C

    Dave_C Member

    Messages:
    14,161
    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    You'll have his tone and your style.
     
  4. Dave_C

    Dave_C Member

    Messages:
    14,161
    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Exactly!!! Agree on all points. It so self-evident, it's hard to understand how anyone could see it any other way!
     
  5. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

    Messages:
    19,602
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    Malibu
    I'm at my usual grouch level...after all I am a cantankerous old bastard.

    But you post a video in support of a claim that just doesn't hold water. We're talking about a player with extremely original approach to his sound and playing.
    I'm not missing the point - unlike guys that believe in chasing gear in order to find their own voice I believe it's the player that shapes the note's ADSR...and yes everything makes a difference, but to me it matters little when the first thing in the chain isn't where we start.
    And the point is not to make Bassman sound like a Soldano or vice versa, since without the player neither one will make any pleasant sounds but where it's at for me is making either amp sound like the player.
     
  6. Jim Soloway

    Jim Soloway Member

    Messages:
    13,835
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Location:
    Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico
    Nonsense. I couldn't get Brian May's tone if you locked me in a room with his rig for a year.
     
  7. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

    Messages:
    19,602
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    Malibu
    Seriously?!?! Have you ever swapped rigs with another player? You really thinks the sound stays with the rig?
     
  8. zachman

    zachman Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,604
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2006
    Location:
    Hawaii
  9. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

    Messages:
    19,602
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    Malibu
    Are you trying to be offensive? Try to not take what I say out of context-and I have said this for years...the point FOR ME is in how amps respond to my hands. What happens when I hit a string at a certain point with a certain strength at a certain angle...is it gonna surprise me or do what I want?

    I'm not fond having my day gig brought into this...but I'll answer it for ya...why a Uni and a BiValve? Because clients in NYC wanted a Uni that was louder. Why a Flexi? Because I felt we needed a 50 watter.
    I can make them all sound like me...others have them sound drastically different. Just like my old Marshall sounds like my Fryette combo when I play it.
    As for knobs...been saying this forever, gimme a on.off switch and call it a day.
     
  10. zachman

    zachman Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,604
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2006
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Ed,

    All in fun-- check this out:

    http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6835387
     
  11. Dave_C

    Dave_C Member

    Messages:
    14,161
    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Ha, ha, ha....funny opening, buddy.

    I agree that the player, by his style and his proficiency and by how he selects and adjusts his tools, will ultimately create what we hear and that the gear isnt responsible for the music that is made/conveyed through it. I think we're ultimately saying the same thing. The first thing in the chain is, indeed, most important!!!
     
  12. Dave_C

    Dave_C Member

    Messages:
    14,161
    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Yep, the timbre stays with the rig and the style follows the player, for better or worse!
     
  13. Dave_C

    Dave_C Member

    Messages:
    14,161
    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    No offense intended. But, you proved my point, again. The hands can't do it all. BTW, I'm talking about proficient players as the starting point. Don't bring hacks and beginners into the equation, please. You're starting to insult my intelligence now. I've seen EJ live videos where his tone is absolutely horrid....buzzy, mushy....just a mess! Having one of the greatest players that ever lived pump his gifted playing into it could not make that gear - that day - sound any good. Why do you think *he* is so obsessed with his gear? You need to have instruments which don't f-ck up what you've worked so hard to perfect!
     
  14. El Caballo

    El Caballo Retired bar hopping musician

    Messages:
    4,399
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    Location:
    Rustlandia, USA
    You're really splitting hairs here!! I can get my sound out of just about any decent piece of gear. I don't let amps or guitars completely dictate how I'm going to sound. It's in my head and in my ear. If you need a particular amp to get what you are hearing in your head more power to ya man. You won't see me sit back and whine because I don't have (insert favorite piece of gear here) sitting for me to use in the backline.

    (insert famous guitarist here) sounds like (insert famous guitarist here) regardless of if he/she is playing a Strat or a LP. If you want to argue that timbre varies from gear to gear, go ahead..I don't think you'll find any arguement. Boogies sound like Boogies, Marshalls sound like Marshalls.......yadda yadda yadda....

    I think that we are at an impass......obviously what you think of tone is not the same as what I think.

    For me I it's not black and white.
     
  15. zachman

    zachman Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,604
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2006
    Location:
    Hawaii
    The thing is, 'that' ambiguous definition-- that those who make the "tone is in the hands" argument adhere to, doesn't exactly promote a clear understanding, and often comes across as though they intentionally use an obtuse meaning to detract from those who are obviously taking the argument literally. (As though it isn't obvious what we, "Tone is in the brain" camp mean.) IMO, it's a big DUH, and should go without saying... that any player will come across as themselves, no matter what gear they use-- though that is NOT the same thing as having the same tone, no matter the gear-- and I think the "Tone is in the hand camp" knows it.

    Further more, if you're a session guy, you'd better be able to get the tone the client and/or producer wants, and not just be limited to "Your" tone, because your tone may not be "It", if you know what I mean.

    Sounds like (stylistically- perhaps, but not tonally)

    There actually has been quite a bit of argument about that very thing in many threads, usually debated by those who realize that on it's face, that it's ridiculous. Obviously a Roland JC120, isn't going to provide the same "tone" as a BF Fender or a cranked Plexi. There are those who argue that they "sound the same" through any of those amps, and I find it interesting that those who take issue with that pov-- don't understand or are unwilling to acknowledge that it's their obtuse definition that should be altered to avoid conflict.

    Exactly... The gear matters, when it comes to the variances of perceived tone, between different combinations of gear.

    I disagree... It is black and white-- in that it all counts, and isn't one or the other-- when discussing tone vs style. There is no tone present in one's hands by themself/ without an instrument.

    Technique is in the hands
    Style is in the soul and transferred via the hands
    Tone is in the brain, and it gets there through the air via the gear--
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2010
  16. pbradt

    pbradt Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,384
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2004
    Well, put the guitar down and how much tone does the amp have?
     
  17. Cymbaline

    Cymbaline Member

    Messages:
    4,152
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2006
    Location:
    Buda, TX
    Or to put it another way...
    Can your fingers finesse a Death Metal tone on a Tele through a Fender Twin? Or a traditional Jazz tone on a Jackson through a Dual Rectifier?
     
  18. zachman

    zachman Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,604
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2006
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Well, when Hendrix and Pete Townsend would throw their guitars on the floor, the tone coming out of the amps was... well you get the idea.

    The other side of the coin is-- put your hands on an electric guitar without plugging it in, and how much tone do your fingers have? ;)

    It starts with the hands on the instruments, is processed by the electronics, and it ends with the listener. It doesn't end with the fingers on the instrument. That is just the start of a sequence/series of events.

    It all counts... take it a step further. When I use a Gibson J200 acoustic vs a shallow dish ovation, (Same fingers mind you), the "Tone" is different, because the tone isn't in the hands-- technique is.
     
  19. jimfog

    jimfog Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,490
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2003
    Location:
    Philly, Pa
    Tons, actually.

    The greatest thing I ever did for my electric playing was spend hours and hours practicing nights with no amp, trying to make a strat sound beautiful and sustain like I wanted.

    In fact, I'll say that if you can't make an electric guitar sound great UNplugged, your chances of getting a good "plugged" tone are mighty slim.
     
  20. zachman

    zachman Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,604
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2006
    Location:
    Hawaii
    I understand what you're saying, and agree that a well built guitar with a resonance, and sustain will be obvious to someone who knows what they're looking for, but that still doesn't take away the fact that gear matters, rather it makes my point, because if the gear wasn't built right allowing that resonance/sustain, no amount of fingers is going to change that-- showing yet another example that the tone is not in the fingers. ;)

    Thanks

    fwiw, I too practice unplugged most of the time and agree that it's useful, just not so much regarding controlling a fire breathing stack. THAT kind of practice is something else, in my experience.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice