Power Amp for reamping. (So many conflicting reports)

[traynor_garnet]

I am considering picking up a Suhr load and reamping with a power amp through my cabs. Problem is, everything I read contradicts itself! You want tubes, you want ultra clean SS, you don't want ultra clean, etc.

I don't want to spend a fortune and I am not looking for the power amp to break up like the power section of a guitar amp (my amp's own power section will be distorting into the load).
One candidate I have read about are the old Mosvalve power amps from the 1990s. The reports on these are all over the place but most people are using them in more 'traditional' guitar rigs (not reamping, using a preamp to the Mosvalve). I believe that even @hogy recommends the Mosvalves with his load, but perhaps my memory has failed.

Any thoughts TGP peeps? Recommendation (again, nothing uber expensive and keeping in mind what I wrote above).

I have a line on a TubeWorks Mosvalve MV-962 or a Carvin DCM200l . Both around the same price.



Thanks in advance,
TG

 

[Watt McCo]

My experience with everything from a lowly Mooer Baby Bomb to the power section of a 100 watt 3rd Power Citizen Gain with several PA SS poweramps and an SD170 in between, is that they all sound a little bit different. For me, the SD170 was a perfectly fine balance between budget/convenience/tone. The tonal differences aren't huge, but for se amps the differences were big enough I could see some people giving them a no-go stank face. Unfortunately, there's no golden rule. That said, to me, it would be some pretty hefty cork sniffing that would justify a tube poweramp for reamping a loaded tube amp or powering a (good) modeler and/or to have wildly different opinions on various suitably-power-supllied SS poweramps (the Mooer Baby Bomb not being suitably power supplies).

 

[tech21nyc]

Any amp will work in that application. The amp used does make a difference though. Solid state amps don't react with the speaker in the same way a tube amp does. There isn't a right or wrong choice as long as you like the end result. EVH slaved his amps into SS power amps for years. My vote would be the Mosvlave (I used to own one) over the Carvin since it was designed to behave like a tube amp. If you have another guitar amp sitting around you can also use that as well. It doesn't have to be a dedicated power amp just use the effects return.

 

[teemuk]

Well, if you want additional colouring from the re-amp then MosValves are a good choice.
Not if you want transparency. In fact, judging by your post you do not want a MosValve power amp. They are used in traditional rigs mostly because they "break up like the power section of a guitar amp" and have low damping factors, which emphases the signal with reactive loads similarly as tube power amps.

 

[tech21nyc]

You have to turn the Mosvalve up to deafening levels for it to break up. Transparency for slaving is twofold. There is tonal transparency and clean power. Then there is the damping aspect of the two different technologies. You normally don't need a super high powered amp if the goal is to "reduce" power an headroom. Hooking up a loaded down amp's line out put into a 100 watt class D amp is not the same as running into a linear 100 watt tube amp. It won't sound or feel identical all things being equal.

 

[Ejay]

In my mind ss at low volume is adequate, but they start messing up things when you turn them up. Maybe I don’t give modern ss amps enough credit, I sure avoid older ones like the plague. I use a ss amp for low volume gigs together with a modeler to saticefaction, but always take tubes when it might get a tad louder (not nuclear). Maybe I have had to many bad experiences with SS to give it a fair chance....tube powersections have proven track records in my book...and I “think” they sound and feel better at volume...but it’s hard comparing different gigs at different times.

The color tube amps give is far less then their reputation give them credit for. Here’s a test I did between 3 tube powersections, 26L6, 1 El34, on modern SS, just above conversation level, the only variable was the powersection.

If weight is not a concern, is see no reason not to buy tubes, probably even cheaper cause of availble used poweramps/heads/combos u could use as powersections.Used 90s Mesa/peavey/marshall 50/50 stereo amps, ibanez tsa, peavey valveking, fender champ12/20....should all go under 300,-..and will sound perfectly fine.
Else...proof of the pudding is in the eating....whatever you pick its not gonna block your way to beeing a rock god

 

[traynor_garnet]

Thanks to everyone for chiming in, especially @tech21nyc

I get what you are saying about the two fold "transparency" with slaving. I have a cheap modern Class D rackmount amp sitting around, as well as an EH .22 Caliber. Both will "do" for the purpose of amplification, but I really want to make it sound like my amp is cranked up directly into the cab (of course, speakers won't break up the same).

TG

 

[staythecourse]

In my mind ss at low volume is adequate, but they start messing up things when you turn them up. Maybe I don’t give modern ss amps enough credit, I sure avoid older ones like the plague. I use a ss amp for low volume gigs together with a modeler to saticefaction, but always take tubes when it might get a tad louder (not nuclear). Maybe I have had to many bad experiences with SS to give it a fair chance....tube powersections have proven track records in my book...and I “think” they sound and feel better at volume...but it’s hard comparing different gigs at different times.

The color tube amps give is far less then their reputation give them credit for. Here’s a test I did between 3 tube powersections, 26L6, 1 El34, on modern SS, just above conversation level, the only variable was the powersection.

If weight is not a concern, is see no reason not to buy tubes, probably even cheaper cause of availble used poweramps/heads/combos u could use as powersections.Used 90s Mesa/peavey/marshall 50/50 stereo amps, ibanez tsa, peavey valveking, fender champ12/20....should all go under 300,-..and will sound perfectly fine.
Else...proof of the pudding is in the eating....whatever you pick its not gonna block your way to beeing a rock god

Thanks for sharing Ejay
re: -> but they start messing up things when you turn them up.

-> could you explain this part a little more ?
-> is the test DI -> DAW or are you using a common cab and micing ?
-> what are you loading the tube amps with (resistive load/inductive speaker load) ?

thanks for answering (if you got the time)

 

[LaXu]

In my mind ss at low volume is adequate, but they start messing up things when you turn them up. Maybe I don’t give modern ss amps enough credit, I sure avoid older ones like the plague. I use a ss amp for low volume gigs together with a modeler to saticefaction, but always take tubes when it might get a tad louder (not nuclear). Maybe I have had to many bad experiences with SS to give it a fair chance....tube powersections have proven track records in my book...and I “think” they sound and feel better at volume...but it’s hard comparing different gigs at different times.

The color tube amps give is far less then their reputation give them credit for. Here’s a test I did between 3 tube powersections, 26L6, 1 El34, on modern SS, just above conversation level, the only variable was the powersection.

If weight is not a concern, is see no reason not to buy tubes, probably even cheaper cause of availble used poweramps/heads/combos u could use as powersections.Used 90s Mesa/peavey/marshall 50/50 stereo amps, ibanez tsa, peavey valveking, fender champ12/20....should all go under 300,-..and will sound perfectly fine.
Else...proof of the pudding is in the eating....whatever you pick its not gonna block your way to beeing a rock god

I have probably asked, but which poweramps did you use for this? I have said before it's hard to tell a difference but often these are things that are not heard so much as felt. I feel both my 35 and 45W tube amps and my 100W BluGuitar Amp 1 hybrid feel different if I run a modeler through them.

 

[Ejay]

Thanks for sharing Ejay
re: -> but they start messing up things when you turn them up.

-> could you explain this part a little more ?
-> is the test DI -> DAW or are you using a common cab and micing ?
-> what are you loading the tube amps with (resistive load/inductive speaker load) ?

thanks for answering (if you got the time)

ss amps messing up: to me it’s typical that ss amps sound fine at home, and as soon as you are on stage you find yourself in a nightmare with farting bass, lacking mids, and piercing highs. Never have I been satisfied with ss at a gig. I’m no tech...but it’s sounds to me those amps don’t remain linear at volume, also it seems some “expanding” is going on (opposite of compression)...only based on my ears.
The only exception is poweredkemper at low gig volume, which is the first modern ss amp I played. I haven’t tried it at “avarage” gig volume. So again..maybe I don’t give modern ss amps enough credit.

the test you hear:
I recorded the guitar into daw with an amp section from my kemper, no cabs Offcourse. So basically that’s guitar + preamp recorded into my daw. That signal was fed into the powersection(s), which where hooked to the same cab which was miced and recorded into daw.
So....the powersection was the only variable.

no loadboxes or such..since I used cab and mic.

 

[staythecourse]

ss amps messing up: to me it’s typical that ss amps sound fine at home, and as soon as you are on stage you find yourself in a nightmare with farting bass, lacking mids, and piercing highs. Never have I been satisfied with ss at a gig. I’m no tech...but it’s sounds to me those amps don’t remain linear at volume, also it seems some “expanding” is going on (opposite of compression)...only based on my ears.
The only exception is poweredkemper at low gig volume, which is the first modern ss amp I played. I haven’t tried it at “avarage” gig volume. So again..maybe I don’t give modern ss amps enough credit.

the test you hear:
I recorded the guitar into daw with an amp section from my kemper, no cabs Offcourse. So basically that’s guitar + preamp recorded into my daw. That signal was fed into the powersection(s), which where hooked to the same cab which was miced and recorded into daw.
So....the powersection was the only variable.

no loadboxes or such..since I used cab and mic.

Thanks Ejay

 

[Ejay]

I have probably asked, but which poweramps did you use for this? I have said before it's hard to tell a difference but often these are things that are not heard so much as felt. I feel both my 35 and 45W tube amps and my 100W BluGuitar Amp 1 hybrid feel different if I run a modeler through them.

Ss amp was a retrofit for my kemper from ritter amps...they call it camplifier.
Bogner alchemist, thats a 6L6 amp.
The egnater renegade allows dialing from el34 to 6l6, so that amp covered 2 powersections.

if your interested, yesterday I posted an experiment comparinga DI profile into cab and mic, to the original amp, and a full profile of that same amp (and setup). Goal was to reveal the impact of “2 powersections” which sorta happens when you stick modelers into tube sections. Its on page2 by now in the digital section
Maybe its of interest to @staythecourse also.

 

[glanum3]

I know little about reamping but if you haven’t got the suhr reactive load yet, how about looking at the fryette power station. It seems that one unit could solve your by issue for about that same the same $ as suhr and a power amp.

 

[traynor_garnet]

I know little about reamping but if you haven’t got the suhr reactive load yet, how about looking at the fryette power station. It seems that one unit could solve your by issue for about that same the same $ as suhr and a power amp.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I have already owned the Power Station and the Boss TAE.

 

[tech21nyc]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I have already owned the Power Station and the Boss TAE.

If the PS didn't work for you it's doubtful that you will be happy with a different load and a SS amp. The PS is the best all in one solution I've tried. I own two of them. The original and the PS100. It could be that your expectations may not match the capabilities of the technology. If you're able to record amps at volume it's easy to hear how well a slaved system works. There is no technology that will replicate the "experience" of playing a 100 watt amp at volume in the proper environment vs the same amp attenuated at bedroom volumes.

 

[traynor_garnet]

If the PS didn't work for you it's doubtful that you will be happy with a different load and a SS amp. The PS is the best all in one solution I've tried. I own two of them. The original and the PS100. It could be that your expectations may not match the capabilities of the technology. If you're able to record amps at volume it's easy to hear how well a slaved system works. There is no technology that will replicate the "experience" of playing a 100 watt amp at volume in the proper environment vs the same amp attenuated at bedroom volumes.

I LOVED my Boss TAE but got scared off by reports of blown tubes and trannies; there was a big discussion here about the safety of the unit. I thought the PS was good and would consider it again, but the thought of being able to pair my preferred load with a power amp is appealing. I would like to hear the Suhr load in person. I also find each of these units sound slightly different (better/worse) on different amps, so in some ways it is about matching the right load with your particular amp.

TG

 

[tech21nyc]

With a properly designed reactive load, the IR will make the biggest difference in tone. I've compared the load in the PS to using a real speaker for a loud at high volumes and it works in the same manner. If a real speaker load doesn't sound "better" than the load in the PS what's a different reactive load going to do? The nice thing about the PS is the load is adjustable.

 

[traynor_garnet]

The different load settings on the TAE made a noticeable difference. You can also hear differences in numerous comparison videos of different loads into the same IR.

 

[rburkard]

A good tube amp that is more on the Hifi side is always good. The biggest problem is the loudspeaker. A broadband guitar loudspeaker can mess up your perception of the modelers' sound quite a bit. On the other hand it can give you a musical feedback that you won't get easily with FRFR units unless you turn it up very loud. IMO it is better to go FRFR because you are more in control. You won't get this nice instant feedback with high gain unless you play very loud since FRFR products are designed to produce no or at least very little feedback. On the plus side, flat sounding linear response studio and or FRFR monitors allow you to adjust your modeler and tweak the sound to your liking and into a more pleasing experience. What I can't understand is that people buy expensive modelers but want to compromise on the reproduction device.

 

[John Mark Painter]

I have the Mosvalve and really like it.
As posted above, it isn’t transparent but it doesn’t really “break up” unless you run it hot.
It is extremely loud.

Really fun having stereo. I tend to run it into two very different cabs