Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by Qstick333, Nov 14, 2019.
Fwiw I've noticed this happens for me too.
As I said, these things are subjective. In many books on jazz guitar, Martino and Benson are listed as fusion guitarists. There's a big difference in playing the guitar that Charlie Christian played, and a modern solid body. Charlie Christian played acoustic guitar on that Edmond Hall album, so I don't think he's a good example of a solid body player. The 'amplified acoustic guitars' that Christian and the others played in the 40s and 50s have a different sound dynamic than the guitars Leo Fender created. Players like Christian, Jimmy raney, Rene Thomas, etc... had more of an acoustic sound to their instruments, because they were playing amplified acoustic guitars.
The 'nature' of a hollow body has more of an acoustic quality than a solid body guitar.
There's a reason why rock guitarists don't use L-5s to play rock music (besides the feedback).
I never said Charlie Christian played a solid body.... Why try to put those words in my mouth?
Jim Hall played a Les Paul for a while, Joe Pass played a Jaguar. This was before fusion was invented....
Jimmy Raney has a very sustainy legato quality to his sound, yet it is has an acoustic quality to it. There's a lot of amp sound for sure.
L5's aren't really that acoustic sounding, the ones I played had very little sound unplugged. An L5 wouldn't sit well in the mix in a rock band...Not because of the acoustic nature of it though.
Your claim that people that play solid bodies play way more notes than people that play arch tops doesn't hold up, nor does your claim than you hav to work harder to play an archtop, as mentioned it depends on the setup. The last L5 I played was set up with really light strings, still sounded like an L5. As easy to play as a Tom Anderson Strat.
Joe Pass played a Jaguar, because he was in the Synanon treatment center for heroin addiction, and he was broke, so they gave him it for free. It was hardly his choice to play a solid body. Jim Hall played a Les Paul for one Chico Hamilton LP. He used a 175 for everything he did with Giuffre, John Lewis, Gunther Schuller, Bill Evans, Art Farmer until he he got the D'Aquisto.
BTW, he called the record he made with Pat Metheny one of the worst records he ever made, because Pat was constantly editing it over and over, until Hall felt like it was a "Frankenstein's monster". Hall was so disgusted by it, he never listened to it again. Gary Burton said in his autobiography "Learning How To Listen", that Pat had been putting little fixes on all his solos, even back when he played in Burton's group. Burton fired Metheny, because he wouldn't listen to Burton's directions, and tried to take over the band.
jimmy Raney's sound was originally very acoustic sounding when he played the same model Gibson that Charlie Christian played, without much sustain. He told me someone stole that guitar out of the trunk of his car, when he lived in Jamaica, Queens.
He started getting that more sustainy sound when he switched to a Hofner that used special pickups that Attilla Zoller made.
I guess I base my comment on solid body players tending to play more notes than archtop players on comparing players like McLaughlin, DiMeola, Stern, Holdsworth, and others in that bag, compared to archtop players like Raney, Hall, Wes etc...
I like how you use very little opportunity to slag another player, first Frisell, now Metheny, in the past I think it was Chuck Wayne? McLaughlin has played archtops by the way. I love Jimmy Raney but he plays as many notes as those guys. Metheny is known as a perfectionist and is probably best suited as a leader.
This is a pointless discussion, you can't label people based on the type of guitar they play. It's BS. There is no connection between playing a certain type of guitar and the amount of notes. It comes down to the individual player, many of whom has played several styles of guitars over the years. Also you can be a great jazz player without ever playing an archtop. Playing an archtop is not superior to playing a solidbody or semi hollow, anyone that would claim such a thing is an idiot.
Sure. When the girlfriend wants to watch a TV show and I'm sitting in the same room and I want to practice crosspicking or arps, I'll use my Tele. If what I want to do needs amplification, I'll go upstairs to my guitar room.
Good, I'm an idiot, now leave me alone!
I finally bought a hollowbody archtop guitar thanks to the Black Friday sale of Deluxe EXL-1s. Good lord, it's loud enough acoustically to practice unplugged if I wanted to. I can't do the double-stop bends from Graydon's "Peg" solo on it, but alternate picking on it seems about the same experience as on my solidbody guitars.
It's probably not as nice as Bill's Anderson archtop, but I like my new EXL-1 a lot more than the Loar and other low-end archtops that I've tried.
Clearly, the NY Times is not infallible - even they make a bad hire from time to time.
I don't consider Bill Frisell a "solid body player". He studied with Johnny Smith in Colorado, then with Jon Damian and Jim Hall at Berklee. Beside that Anderson, he has acoustics, the SG, Strats, Teles, a Colling semi-hollow, another archtop or two, etc. His guitar collection reflects his versatility as a musician - any attempt to stick labels on him is doomed to failure.
That new black Collings Frisell is playing is actually fully hollow.
Oh, cool! I've no idea how accurate his Equipboard page is - it shows the I-35 sunburst Collings, as well as his SG and the Strat used for his John Lennon tribute Tiny Desk Concert.
Johnny Smith was playing solo guitar stuff like this over 60 years ago.
. Frisell studied with him for less than a year in college. His tribute album to Smith was pretty sad, according to every guitar player I know who heard it.
Yes, I'm aware. The thread on his Debussy cover vs. Ted Greene's was interesting.
You're entitled to your opinion on Frisell. I also have my opinions about various players but in the interest of promoting evolution over devolution, I keep the negative ones, gossip, etc. to myself.
Well, the topic of the thread was practicing guitar plugged in or unplugged, and Johnny Smith was the one that I quoted as saying that you should work on getting your sound unplugged first before you practice plugged in.
It seemed to work for Smith...
I seem to remember a different tone in how you introduced Jimmy Smith into the thread, but it doesn't matter now.
I got the acoustic. I got the big hollow archtop. Got the semi-hollows and Tele. Still got the amp. Ready to rock, roll, and jazz!
The bear says he practices 90% of the time unplugged, yet he's a monster player as evidenced by his posts to the "Impressions", "fast country", etc. playalong threads. You should also post to one of those threads so we can better understand where you're coming from. I have posts there too. My playing is not as good, but enough evidence is there for people to determine whether or not to ignore whatever I have to say, lol.
The player who practices 50 hrs a week on a Strat unplugged and only plugs into an amp during a monthly visit to Guitar Center... vs. the player who practices a few min. a day on average on an acoustic/archtop - I'm guessing Strat person will be much further along in development after one year than the other.
People who read this thread arrive at whatever conclusions they like. I'm more likely to be influenced by someone with clearly demonstrated skills at a high level.
I am a lesser player because I don't play an archtop all the time. I am sure the Dog and his crew of unnamed guitar player friends could smoke Bill Frisell.
He has a new black Collings I-30now, I saw him play it a few weeks ago. It's the first one the made with humbuckers. I have one too, but mine has P90's and no bigsby. I saw him play with his old I-35 too a couple of years ago. The I-35 and I-30 has the same body shape, but the I-35 has a center block. Think 335 vs 330.
Jimmy Smith played the organ, Johnny Smith played the guitar. My first post to this thread was that Johnny smith and Martin VI stated that a jazz player should try to get his sound by first developing it unplugged, and then do whatever he likes.
You and the Bear seemed to get upset about it for some reason. As I said, take it up with JS (hold a seance, or listen to his records) and MVI, if it bothers you that much.
Nowadays, I play the same guitar that Paul Bollenback plays, a Jazz Solid B-222, so I don't care what guitar you and the bear use, just get off my back.
Your previous Johnny Smith post originally included a quote of my post, which appears to have been edited out, which signaled a start of a conversation with me. If I'm wrong and you really didn't quote my post and thus want to converse with me, I apologize and will take greater care in responding to your posts on this thread.
I don't see how I'm showing that I am upset. I'm not asking anyone to get off my back, while you are asking me and The Bear ( a different person ) to get off yours.
I have a different opinion of Bill Frisell than you but I've been willing to accept that - doesn't upset me.
Playing unplugged is basically equivalent to playing an Acoustic with limited dynamics.
Players I know of are EVH, Eliiot Easton (mentioning playing while watching tv and also mentioning playing with an amp to get used to that as well), John Fogarty wrote songs unplugged (for volume reasons) including Who'll Stop The Rain.
No doubt there are countless others.
I think if someone is blaming playing unplugged for bad technique then I think that's pushing it to be honest.
Bending and picking technique etc is not that different unplugged or plugged or Acoustic, it's just a case of adapting a bit.
Unplugged is just basically a limited Acoustic after all.
Playing with an amp can involve latency and usually someone can adapt to it pretty quickly and also of course more dynamics and tone options.
I just saw PB play one of these recently, sounded great. I have never had a chance to play a Borys but I have heard good things.