Pro Tools is making me crazy!

Discussion in 'Recording/Live Sound' started by rog951, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. jmoose

    jmoose Member

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    Spend enough time recording and you'll see everything crash and burn at some point... I've had both Macs & Windows machines go down or just cough and spit up a project with the same amount of frequency. Computers, DAW software and all that really makes no difference. Nothing is immune from failure or ill-configuration.

    The absolute best way to screw up any DAW is to multi-task the computer. Doesn't matter if its Sonar, Monkey Toolz, Nuendo etc they all want to live and will give you the absolute best performance on a dedicated machine. Settings for general computing & websurfing don't translate to great DAW performance... sure every program has its own quirks but they all demand certain things from the OS and things like wireless networks are gonna screw with your interface and create all kinds of havoc, like crazy latency and dropouts while recording.

    This is all assuming of course that you've got legit software. Maybe because I've done a lotta PC support over the years it seems like whenever someone has a problem with "Nuendo" it turns out they're running some cracked copy "a friend gave 'em" on a virus laden machine. Could say I wish I had a nickle for each time that happened but ehhh... I do!!! Lets be honest, how many people are gonna drop $2k on software when they have a $150 interface and a couple SM57?
     
  2. Myriad_Rocker

    Myriad_Rocker Member

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    And here I was thinking I might finally give Pro Tools a shot (along with Reaper). I think I'll now scale that list down to just Reaper or possibly just stick with Sonar. I may add Logic when I have the guts to get a Mac...and the pocketbook.
     
  3. rog951

    rog951 Member

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    I'd hate to think my ranting has discouraged anyone from trying out PT for him or herself. I originally posted this as a way to blow off some steam and to sorta gauge my own level of incompetence after PT seemed to be throwing one roadblock after another at me in almost comical fashion. I'm certain my PT installation could be rock solid if I can keep plugging away, cleaning up my issues. Too many people are using it successfully for it to be otherwise.

    That said, I've used Sonar and Cubase pretty extensively in the past - and on much less capable machines than my current one - with pretty much zero issues of the type I've had to deal with in my brief stint with PT. I just think the Pro Tools code is much less tolerant of PC shenanigans, which Mr. Hanna alluded to so elequently above.

    The only reason I tried PT in the first place is because I've got the Eleven Rack and its user interface inside PT is pretty slick. I was hoping I could just use PT for everything. We'll see; the jury is still out but it's been enough of a pain that I'm starting to consider punting.
     
  4. Joseph Hanna

    Joseph Hanna Member

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    For me this is again slightly missing the point. First; I'd submit I've been doin' audio for post television for a long, long time now. I dunno if that's worth a plug nickle from an expertise perspective or not but there can be no doubt I've had my nose in both Pro Tools and Logic 12 hours a day for well over a decade. That said and depending on the time of year (and any particular shows production schedules) we've got up to 5 bays runnin 24/7. Usually three shift per bay although there is often someone who draws the short straw and works "swings". I can't honestly every remember any Mac down for more than a morning...if that. Further we're not only linked to 30 Avid editors, in house and all using Mac's, we also need to be on the exact same page with 3,4 and sometimes 5 other facilities..all also using Macs. The logistics of having literally a hundred PC's all configured the same and all talkin to one another AND having enough staff to keep the machines running under what has to be some of the worlds worst deadlines is certainly one of the reason you simple never find a PC in those environments.

    Now...before you loose your cookies and to address another misconception that seems to permeate these discussions. It's not a "fault" of PC's per se. It's not even a fault of the OS. It is however the mere fact that seemingly every PC, every made on the face of the planet, since the dawn of history has had an almost endless list of endless hardware with endless specs and endless obstacles created because of those endless hardware venders. When crap is really on the line I want a Mac simply because the code writers (@Pro Tools) have had a infinitely smaller mountain to climb and the consistency of many Macs running in harmony is (at least historically better documented).

    Could you get a PC to perform as well as a Mac?? Sure you could and in some cases PC's just happen to be built with hardware with coding issues Digi/Avid have already had the opportunity to address. There again one (as many, many, many do) can built their "monster" PC with all the greatest PC specs and if the hardware ain't addressed at the code level (as many, many, many have discovered) it becomes a big ole Pro Tools paper weight. That of course not to dis PC's. Certainly spec-wise they're up to par. Spec's however (particularly when they are in direct conflict with an application) amount to nothing.



    Although in the early days at Digi (waaaaaaaaay back in the dark ages) we did absolutely advocate separate drives and separate machines. There were many real, pragmatic and daunting reasons to do so. Certainly one of those reasons were drives speeds, thru-put and most importantly allocation issues. All of those issues have disappeared long, long ago. I guess there is some issues for a guy who is a heavy gamer and insists on using a video card that throws Pro Tools into fits but by and large multitasking will absolutely NOT screw up a DAW. I ask my Mac in my bay to do everything shy of cooking breakfast...never a problem.


    Yea moose that's a PC thing and goes directly to the issues of unfounded and non-supported hardware conflicts. In all my years supporting both Pro Tools and Logic I've NEVER, not once, encountered a stock Mac wireless network component interfere with a DAW.
     
  5. BrewDrinkRepeat

    BrewDrinkRepeat Member

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    Neither have I... I've been hearing people recommend that you not allow your DAW computer to connect to the Internet for as long as I've been frequenting audio forums, and I've always felt that this wasn't really an issue. Even less so with modern machines; there is nothing about a network connection -- wireless or wired -- that is going to affect your DAW's performance or the latency of your system in any way whatsoever.

    Now, I'm not saying you should have a browser window open while you're tracking -- when I'm working I only have Logic open -- but there is no reason to isolate your DAW machine from a network or the internet.
     
  6. deanmass

    deanmass Member

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    +1.
     
  7. jmoose

    jmoose Member

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    Really? Well... ok. Never seen a software application go looking to autoupdate in the midst of a tracking session? Honest injun?

    Don't really have the energy or willpower to get into a long debate... done that too many times over the years and at least for me, its not worth the energy other then to say our experience differs. That said I've never worked for Avid/Digi so like, maybe if I knew which voodoo spells worked for a given situation and had direct & privileged access to upgrades I might have a different opinion of the company at large.

    I dunno squat about code or anything... all I know is if somethings working or not working and for the most part Monkey Toolz, as you say is picky about supported vs non-supported hardware to a degree that no other DAW is. Spent more time ripping my hair out then working, to say nothing of the bad old days of upgrade paths...

    This might take 'ya back some. Was tossing old magazines years ago & scanned this before it hit the recycling bin.

    The more things change the more they stay the same eh?


    [​IMG]
     
  8. mattball826

    mattball826 Member

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    used pt on many machines myself. mac or pc. it can be a pita. newer daws like sonar x2 or x1 series, studio one run great. win 7 or 8 are fast enough. and with most hardware today there is no superior computing version for daw.

    pro tools as fixed desk workstation on it own hardware platform is a entirely different thing. 20 x as expensive as most home daw just for basic setup.

    now for personal computing and daw. if on my mac its logic. if on my pc its sonar x2. pt needs to catch up with the pack.
     
  9. Mondoslug

    Mondoslug Member

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    The problems you speak of moose are pretty much exclusive to PCs and Pro Tools though. Yes, it's a fact you can stick a crack'd copy of Cubendo in a Commodore 64 & it'll probably work...PT, not so much.


    so I've heard.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  10. Joseph Hanna

    Joseph Hanna Member

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    Moose, I was around for the early, early days of Digidesign. That was a great time of embryonic software/DAW development. If you think there are problems now you should have been around tryin to make things work in those days.

    Yea moose that's, once again, a PC thing. To my knowledge even pesky folks like Adobe can't write approved code to initiate auto search for updating their software on the Mac OS. It is a process that must be initiated by the user and must be provided for by the gate keeper (Mac root level password) Honest injun :)

    Naw moose, no offense here, but you're just plain wrong about your assumption/perspective. We weren't bad guys that withheld or dispensed voodoo, we had ABSOLUTELY and I mean ABSOLUTELY nothing by way of direct and or privileged access to anything by way of spells or upgrades. What we DID have is good old hard fought and won knowledge. We all constantly had our nose to the grind in an attempt to be as well informed about the FACTS concerning how to configure a computer to work with a DAW. It became clear early on in the DAW infant stages that there were some strange psychological factors at play when people align with a particular DAW and it didn't work for them. There was, by the way, an equal amount of disdain when I worked for Logic as there was for Digidesign. People quickly knee-jerk reacted (often with a fair degree of hate). It was not only a difficult pill to swallow for us but the utter truth was 99.999% of the time people insisted on hating Digidesign and seemingly committed to not looking in there own back yard to solve the problem. It felt like folks were more satisfied yelling and screaming than fixing their DAWs. That indeed wasn't a "seldom seen" problem either. I bet if folks calmed the hate I could have solved 80% of the problems on the spot. I still see that mind set to this day and in fact is the reason I started responding to this thread in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  11. SkippyD

    SkippyD Member

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    Been using it for nearly 15 years...no problems. I find it extremely easy to use and I've never taken a course or had formal training(my line of work is post production for TV),
    BUT, just a few weeks ago my iLock crapped out on my home system, and I must say that was a bitch to deal with. I have more issues with PACE than with ProTools.

    If you find ProTools difficult, be glad you never have had to run an old AMS Neve system or an SSL board.

    I also use Logic as well for writing music for picture. I like to edit and mix with PT, but if I'm using midi and softsynths I usually will do that within Logic and bring stems into PT.
     
  12. SkippyD

    SkippyD Member

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    As for auto updating...the computers I use for work are actually not connected to the internet during sessions(my main system isn't connected ever)so it's not a problem. The are connected to a network, but I've never experienced any trouble with that either. You can usually turn off autoupdate...maybe I'm wrong about that, but I still have never had the software ask me to update during a session. (I run all my DAW's on a mac)
     
  13. Nazgul666

    Nazgul666 Member

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    Let me just chime in as a complete recording noob becasue sometimes when you have as much expertise as some of you guys do you can forget what its like to be a rookie. I just posted this in another thread about Pro Tools but its applicabel here too.

    I wanted to get into recording. I had my first experince with RiffWorks which is a really simple tool that comes with Line 6 products.

    But I bought Pro Tools because the guy at GUitar Center convinced me it was the way to go, Well,it drove me nuts. Couldn't get it to recognze my hardware, had trouble even getting a metronome going. Everything just seemed too hard. I was disappointed with myself and gave up.

    A few months later I got the bug again and double clicked on Garageband on my imac. The more I messed with it the more I wa able to do. Plugged in my midi controller and bang, it recognized it, no issues. Plugged in my interface and instant recognition. Same with my usb guitar modeller.

    Then when I got confused I went online and checked out some tutorials. I was learning about digital recording and the newest version of Garageband went way past what I thought needed but I still felt like I wasn't using a proper DAW.

    Even though I already had Pro Tools, I was happy with the Apple Garageband recording software so I went to the App Store and downloaded Logic Pro 9. Well a month later I'm recording live drums, midi, guitar, using sends and inserts and busses etc. I am so psyched!

    Now, I'm not going to say Logic is better or easier than anything else but I do think that everybody's mind works differently and some DAW's are just more intuitive for certain people.

    But for someone getting frustrated and ready to quit, I would say, hey, go check out Garageband (and for those who haven't seen it in years its much different, there's flex time, crossfades, a lot going on) get to the point where you can record some tracks and then download Logic Pro 9 from the app store. Its a download and I think its like $199. It was a lifesaver for me.

    Mike
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Joseph Hanna

    Joseph Hanna Member

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    Once again Matt, Sonar and Logic are OS specific platforms. Can't run Sonar on a Mac, can't run Logic on a PC. The problems we've been discussing have to do with manufactures/code writers who attempt to be cross-platform as is Pro Tools.

    That said and as I've mentioned here I'm certified on both Pro Tools and Logic and work in both extensively. I'm curious, and if you could be specific, tell me where you think Pro Tools as a DAW solution has fallen "behind the pack". Feel free to use Logic as a benchmark for purposes of comparison. In other words what specifically does Logic do that Pro Tools doesn't that is a significant improvement?
     
  15. jmoose

    jmoose Member

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    Oh I remember those days well... first studio I worked at had a pair of Studer A800's with SoundTools sitting next to the console, stereo editing with a Panasonic 3800 doing conversion in all its 16 bit glory! Drum "replacement" consisted of loading one sample into a 2290... those were the days! And yup, digital recording has certainly come a long way since then.

    There's no sense in arguing about it, but I'll only say I've lost countless days to issues with Toolz that don't seem to exist with other DAW's. Nothings worse then having a bunch of musicians around ready to go and there's some technical glitch preventing things from moving forward.

    One of the more recent misadventures, I guess about two years ago was when some long time friends & clients ended up recording at Oceanway St Barths. They left the studio with a drive but no rough mixes since there wasn't time to run them, got home & called me up... no problems opening the session & dinking around.

    Few weeks later they wanna recut some vocals & such, no problem. Get everyone together, get sounds up... Toolz won't record. Generates an error message. Now we're trying things and all momentum & inspiration is zapped... then after hours of nonsense it hit me! Oceanway sent 'em packing with a drive that was formatted FAT32. We can read it all day long, just can't write.

    After debating the options I ended up spending the rest of that day painstakingly exporting the entire session out of Toolz and into another DAW so we could actually you know, work on music another day.

    Funny is that OMF support would make that easy... every other DAW like Cubase & Digital Performer have it built in but its what, a $500+ add on for Monkey Toolz? Nothing really "pro" about that eh?

    Sorry, nothing you can say will EVER win me back or convince me spend another dime on Avid unless I really have to.
     
  16. Mondoslug

    Mondoslug Member

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    It's just a fact of life, there's two basic camps: those who like Pro Tools & work with it successfully & those who don't like Pro Tools and use something else successfully.
     
  17. rog951

    rog951 Member

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    I'm in a third camp: those who very much want to like Pro Tools but are so annoyed by it that they just installed Reaper. :eek:
     
  18. Mondoslug

    Mondoslug Member

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    :) Yeah, I'm thinkin' I might have overlooked a few...
     
  19. 6shotsdown

    6shotsdown Member

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    I recently did the same thing. I used PT for a long time and really liked it but the updates and compatibility issues finally sent me to Reaper. Some things are better, some are worse. But it runs much more smoothly.
     
  20. Joseph Hanna

    Joseph Hanna Member

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    Naw moose..not trying to argue as it's not in my nature :) I certainly am all for any genuine audio guy using whatever tool works best for them.

    Well now...:) First the OMFI protocol has been included free for Digi products for some years now. It's true that Digi charged an arm and a leg for it in the early days but the reason they charged an arm and a leg for it was it was their software. It was an extraordinarily costly build (took up a whole bunch of Avid's resources) which Digi felt the very real need to re-coup on it's investment. Now...understand that the OMFI protocol was designed for one purpose and only one purpose. That was of course to get the then Avid symphony sessions into Pro Tools. The fact is Stienberg, MOTU, eMagic and a cast of others were absolutely free to develop an "inter-application" software on their own which in fact NONE of them wished to venture into. It was FAR too costly to even consider visiting that kind of code. In fact it was MUCH easier for each of them to pay the relatively small license fee to Digi and incorporate OMFI conversion to users at a root level.

    The fact is of course and as anyone who relied on, yet suffered through, the OMFI days it never was a particularly solid build and it would have absolutely and utterly NOT and in anyway have solved your FAT 32 formatted drive issues. First, you can't open an OMFI UNLESS it was previously saved as an OMFI file. And second and even if it was saved as an OMFI, the protocol would only bring forward exceedingly narrow components of the previous Pro Tools session.

    What then would have prevented you from coping the Monkey Tools sessions that resided on the FAT 32 drive from Oceanway over to your computers internal drive (which of course wouldn't be mis-formatted) and continue with the session from there??
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013

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