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Properties of Reflection Free IRs

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by Jay Mitchell, May 17, 2019.

  1. oøt

    oøt Member

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    It happened to me again today. Plugged my Helix direct to the house system. Jays ir C Helix, Cali Texas 1(Mesa Lonestar). 20 seconds later the engineer says: nice sounding box:) I'm using the settings I normally use, but adding a little bass on the amp settings. Sounds and feel great. I'd love a couple of more options:) I've also tried the 4x12, and I realise that it was never my thing. (Neither in analog life). But, I can hear the filtering between the different drivers much more clear than in any 4x12 ir I've heard. Very interesting. Thanks again Jay, this has been most educative, and I do hope someone contacts you! @Frank Ritchotte
     
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  2. randombastage

    randombastage Member

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    Is the 'Jay Mitchell C ir' something that is available to download somewhere?
     
  3. Ingolf

    Ingolf Member

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    No, you need to PM him to share it with you.
    That said, we can all hope for a @Jay Mitchell - Line 6 partnership to improve the overall quality of IR's that units like the Helix ship with.
    It never hurts to buy in some external expertise, perhaps there are negotiations already. ;)
     
  4. Gtrbldr

    Gtrbldr Member

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    Jay was so kind to send me the IRs to test them as well. Great experiment! I made a preset with 2 basic sounds, I use in my presets in my helix for P&W kind of music: an edge of break up and crunchy sound. My presets in the helix consist of 2 amps: a matchless DC30 and a /13.

    Based on the notes I guess A and C were made to sound more or less in the same ballpark. One them is the FF and one is NF: my guess would be that A is NF due to the fizz and more prominent bass response. C is more midrange prominent to my ears and I guess is the FF IR. It took some getting used to, and finding the right amp model in my helix (deluxe nrm), but is sounded realistic and (for lack of better words) amp like.

    B was totally different and - well - not my cup of tea. I did
    Not tinker around with it much.

    I really like the concept of these IRs, and would love to try some IRs of speakers types that are more my style. I am not a big fan of fendery types of speakers, to each his own I guess. What I like about the concept is -by lack of a better word- the natural response. It sounds real and not processed. However: if you are used to close miked tones, this is somewhat different. I guess in a live situation this will work well (midrange focus will sit nicely in a mix), but it needs some surgical removal of frequencies to sound great. I cut some around 600 Hz and it became a little more balanced to my ears.

    So: hopefully this concept will get some more attention and a bigger library. I like its natural sound :).
     
  5. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

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    That IR would not be my go-to for either of those amp models.

    I took a series of NF IRs at various mic positions and distances to see how close I could get the the FF one. The one in that pair is the closest one, and it's a long way from a match.
     
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  6. Gtrbldr

    Gtrbldr Member

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    That is why I made a new preset with the deluxe nrm in the helix. That worked a lot better :)
     
  7. AZG

    AZG Member

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    I’m really hoping Line 6 @Frank Ritchotte and Fractal @cliffc8488 are working hard to capture and include a wider variety of FF IR in their devices? The FF IR provides by Jay and @gigsup have become my go to IRs. They really sound more natural and are easier to use IMO, but I would love more cab/speaker options.
     
  8. GravityWell

    GravityWell Member

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    Fractal did actually capture and share some far field impulse responses recently, though they are not entirely reflection free. Also they are only for the Axe FX III. It has been said that they sound good, but I don’t have a Fractal product to hear them with. While I am interested in hearing them, I am more interested in reflection free far field impulse responses, because that is what this thread was about. That doesn’t mean the ones that Cliff captured are bad, they are just not exactly what we are (were?) discussing in this thread.
     
  9. ethomas1013

    ethomas1013 Supporting Member

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    Yes, some of the Fractal FF IR's sound really good. Some not so much. Some of them I like more than Jay's IR "C" and 4x12 IR, but that does not mean that the FAS FF IRs are "better" than Jay's or that they accurately represent the cabinets they were shot from. I just means that I like them for what I want to hear and that they work better for me with the amp models that I am pairing then with.
     
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  10. MIJLOVER

    MIJLOVER Member

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    I'm quoting you all just to say +10000000000!!

    @Frank Ritchotte
    Just joining in on the pressure – give Jay a call.

    Honestly, it would be a G ... changer :)
     
  11. Bigjay

    Bigjay Member

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    So, here is my little “review” of the A/B/C IR provided by Jay Mitchell. I spent a lot of time those last few weeks testing IRs, through my helix and all the available monitoring system I could find (headphones, PC-monitor, 2 PAs and an FRFR cab). Caveat: I’m mostly a high gain rhythm player and 90% of my testing was done with such sounds. I did try them with many different sounds, but my ears aren’t trained for those and my feedback wouldn’t be anything valuable with those other sounds. Also, it was the first time that I really spent hours creating sounds with IRs, I usually play through a guitar cab.

    I’ll start with saying that B was terrible, sounded like there was some modulation effect going, and it was all the more apparent as I turned gain up. Ditched it very fast.

    A is what I would call a good IR but not to my taste and nothing that would make me come back to it. It worked very well with my more “rock-edge of breakup” preset (same could be said with C), but that’s not a sound I use very often.

    I spent a lot of time with C (maybe due to some bias since I have been reading whole thread over here) and found it really interesting. When I first played, I didn’t like it: very middy, my preset sounded very boxy. But I was very surprised that they required no high/low cut and liked the “directness” of that sound. I played with it for a while then went back to my usual IRs… only to hear everything that was wrong with them: phasey sounds, uncontrollable basses. It was an “ear-opening” experience. I then tried to create a high gain preset from scratch for the C-IR. But I never really got it to work.

    I now use mixed IRs, using IR-C in combination with another more “traditional” sounding IR to give it a character closer to what I need. I also use the FF IRs found in another TGP thread and had some success mixing them in too.

    That experience made me much more critical of the qualities an IR need to have, and I deleted 90% of those I was using prior to those tests because I now find them completely unlistenable.

    IMO, FF-reflection free IRs are an answer to the problematic bass and high end response that most IRs show, and to have a sound closer to that of a real cab, but they won’t end the IR-hunt:
    - They can still be of different quality.
    - The speaker characteristic matters just as much as the quality of the IR. Even if IR-C is very good, I can’t really use it as is.
    - I also found FF IRs to be very sensitive to the monitoring system, even more so than regular IRs. You’ll still need different IRs for headphone/PA/FRFR and so on.

    It was a great experience and I’m thankful that Jay brought us that knowledge and those IRs to try them out.

    PS: A guitarist friend of mine never had a “real” amp. He started straight with emulations and now plays a kemper. He also produces a lot of music. I let him play through my FF presets… and he disliked them. I found that quite interesting… FF won’t fit everybody.

    PS2: now I have to try Jay’s 4x12 IR, to see if it gets me closer to what I need:banana
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  12. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

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    I don't ever play that style, but I can tell you that no open back 12" cab or IR of such a cab will be suitable for those sounds. I will further add that no IR will by itself produce a good headphone listening experience. Headphones are their own world. I never use them, nor do I attempt to develop solutions for them. At a minimum, you would need to dial in a reverb that replaces some of the room ambience you lose with 'phones. You also really need to equalize them for flat response on your ears. That in itself constitutes a formidable challenge.
    Absolutely. Getting reflection free far field IRs is just the first step along the way.
    Of course. The speaker characteristic is the entire reason for using an IR to simulate a speaker.
    These IRs are "regular IRs."
    You don't need different IRs. You do need different system settings - including reverb and equalization - for different monitoring types. If you make optimal use of these settings, you will not need to change IRs.
     
  13. EL84 Abuser

    EL84 Abuser Silver Supporting Member

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    Can someone please post verifiable specs on this?
     
  14. DGTCrazy

    DGTCrazy Mod Squad Staff Member

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    Folks, don't post quotes from other Forum's on TGP, especially when they shed any TGP member in a potentially negative or provocative manner. Thanks.
     
  15. big mike

    big mike Gold Supporting Member

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    And business members need to stop commenting on their competitors products
     
  16. Tmidiman

    Tmidiman Member

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  17. RDH

    RDH Member

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    @ Jay Mitchell
    I've been following this thread for a week or so and tried sending a PM to see if or where I could get the FF Ir's mentioned to try on My AxFx III out of curiosity. However it says your inbox is full. I don't see them anywhere in the thread. Would it be possible to somehow get them?
    Thanks Ron
     
  18. gigsup

    gigsup Supporting Member

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    I ran results in post #824 a couple of months ago. The disparity is obvious.
    The Kemper Cab Maker does not translate the original IR perfectly, in fact, a Mooer Radar does a better job of doing that at its native 1024 sample length.
    I imagine if/when there is a new Kemper this is something they will address. Still, FF IRs sound great in the Kemper, and easily replace the NF cab IRs that come from other profiles. I've basically locked or replaced all the profiled cabs with FF IRs in the cab section for recording.
    But for live comparison I use a Radar with a Suhr Load Box to compare my FF IRs with the cabs they came from, because it does have better resolution.
     
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  19. Blahfingers

    Blahfingers Member

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    I finally had some time to listen to these three IRs and Jay kindly sent them to me. I set up identical amp models and settings on my Amplifire with only the cab IRs differing and I had the same reaction everyone else seems to have had (C>A>B).


    Interestingly, my wife, who is quite musical but not a guitarist, walked in at one point, so I ran them past her in a blinded fashion, just asking ‘which of these sounds best?’ She picked the same order.


    Also of note, since on another thread people are raving about the C IR, is that Jay pointed out he has previously made and shared a Marshall and a Fender IR which are also reflection free. I tracked those down and I preferred the Fender one to the C sample for Fender amps. I do like the C with some of the Amplifire Marshall amps, though.
     
  20. timowens316

    timowens316 Member

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    I got to test these IR's (thanks Jay) and here are my thoughts...

    I used my own Direct Amp profiles in the Kemper, I loaded the IR's into a Torpedo CAB and then ran that into a CLR monitor.

    Note: I'm not a big IR user, I actually use a guitar cab on stage but with both the Kemper and AX8 I do run a direct signal to the board so I am concerned about what it sounds like in the mains.

    Like everyone else I found B to be pretty much useless. A and C impressed me as being very high quality IR's, I'd say they are probably the highest quality IR's I've ever tried. I normally use one or two 112 closed back cabs with either Scumback M75's or Celestion Creamback NEO's so the tone of these IR's is not particularly my cup of tea, but like I said I think the quality of the IR's is top notch, in other words they sound exactly like what I would expect given the cab that was captured.

    Another thing I found interesting was that as I was switching between A, B and C I heard a phasing type issue with B. While that phasing issue was still in my head I switched to a handful of commercial IR's that I had loaded in the CAB and I was surprised how many of the commercial IR's had a similar phasing issue that I never noticed before, not as bad but I could still hear it.

    It would be great if there were more of these available, in my case I'd love to have some of a 112 closed back cab with a Greenback type speaker (hint) :)
     
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