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Q: Why huge RevivalDrive volume difference through cab, but not direct?

RwP42

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
309
So this one is stumping me. I recently set up my rig for recording. Here's the signal path:

Fender Tele -> Pedalboard -> Two Rock CLRS 100W head -> Suhr RL/IR -> mixer -> computer.

I set all pedal volumes/levels so they are roughly 'even' with the clean level, based on the mixer meters. I can record any of my pedals or combinations with expected consistent results in the computer.

If I go direct to the cab:

Fender Tele -> Pedalboard -> Two Rock CLRS 100W head -> 2x12 cabinet.

All of my pedals behave the same except my RevivalDrive Hot Rod Custom. It is suddenly massively louder than the rest. No settings changes. Given that the levels read similarly in the first example on a mixer that was after the RL/IR, I don't get why I'd see such a significant difference when running into the cab. Any ideas?
 

npappas

Member
Messages
469
Sounds like headroom mismatches to me. I.e. one setup will have more headroom than the other. The setup with more headroom, you'll hear the Revival louder.

The Revival Drive does have a "Re-amp EQ" setting that is preferred in no-cab rigs, you might want to try that.
 

RwP42

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
309
Sounds like headroom mismatches to me. I.e. one setup will have more headroom than the other. The setup with more headroom, you'll hear the Revival louder.
The Revival Drive does have a "Re-amp EQ" setting that is preferred in no-cab rigs, you might want to try that.
Thank you for the response. I agree that it sounds like it is a headroom issue, but in neither case was the mixer registering clipping. Because the Suhr RL/IR has impulse responses, I hadn't set to no-cab EQ setting. I will try that however.
 

s3gle

Member
Messages
431
Can you get mixer levels of the board, amp, and of the cab? I'm sorry if that's no help, but if it matters, I'd balance through the cab (unless you decide the levels are fine thru IR) and maybe check if skipping the RL to mixer by going from amp send/stereo in the loop (?) . See if it's the pedal or the headroom.

Do you use the RL for attenuation before IR or just to handle the load for silent tracking? It will probably be that, attenuated signal that is even on the meter jumps way up thru cab because the pedal's output is much less significant in the case of the former. It all sounds like normal operation to me, unless you're using the RL to handle a fairly clean load and the difference is more than double, as close as you can tame it
 

RwP42

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
309
Can you get mixer levels of the board, amp, and of the cab? I'm sorry if that's no help, but if it matters, I'd balance through the cab (unless you decide the levels are fine thru IR) and maybe check if skipping the RL to mixer by going from amp send/stereo in the loop (?) . See if it's the pedal or the headroom.
Do you use the RL for attenuation before IR or just to handle the load for silent tracking? It will probably be that, attenuated signal that is even on the meter jumps way up thru cab because the pedal's output is much less significant in the case of the former. It all sounds like normal operation to me, unless you're using the RL to handle a fairly clean load and the difference is more than double, as close as you can tame it
I use the Suhr RL/IR to replace the cab for silent recording. I think I'd have to mic the cab to get a level off of it? When I balance for the cab in the room, the levels of the RDHRC are VERY low for recording. I do think it all has something to do with headroom, I am just having difficulty understanding why.

Here is my board for reference:
View media item 234771
And here is the amp/Suhr:
View media item 208009
 

s3gle

Member
Messages
431
Ah well if you're not going to use the power soak for tube saturation, then micing the cab may not be a worthy choice. This may not be relevant, but frequently the use of volume pots on over drives of any kind are just compensation for the level reduction that comes with stacked compression. Headroom may explain why this isn't affected by having everything equally cranked/wet but at least your gear seems to be in top condition. I would just settle on it's working, albeit differently and try not to question it lol. I have a few jerry-rig patches on everything as a way of life so maybe this advice isn't pertinent to your goals. Reading some basic description of the RDC seems to suggest that the wet signal is shelved by frequency and arrives however loud that amount of gain will be in parallel with dry based on the pot, so maybe the jump in volume (if not bc of amp headroom, which I guess it is? I don't know) versus the soak to mixer (?) is just how much output passes to the OT and speakers as the wet freq range, whereas the mixer sees the speaker load post IR as one rather equal wave, ie the RDC gain must come up to sound the same because of the shelve mix going to conversion instead of a cab. I have trouble sometimes at the mixer because a certain octave is much louder to pre's than the other portion's and EQ is usually never the answer, it's the problem haha. Great to speaker, rougher direct unfortunately

You have great taste in gear, good luck with your recording. Sorry I'm no help
 

RwP42

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
309
Ah well if you're not going to use the power soak for tube saturation, then micing the cab may not be a worthy choice. This may not be relevant, but frequently the use of volume pots on over drives of any kind are just compensation for the level reduction that comes with stacked compression. Headroom may explain why this isn't affected by having everything equally cranked/wet but at least your gear seems to be in top condition. I would just settle on it's working, albeit differently and try not to question it lol. I have a few jerry-rig patches on everything as a way of life so maybe this advice isn't pertinent to your goals. Reading some basic description of the RDC seems to suggest that the wet signal is shelved by frequency and arrives however loud that amount of gain will be in parallel with dry based on the pot, so maybe the jump in volume (if not bc of amp headroom, which I guess it is? I don't know) versus the soak to mixer (?) is just how much output passes to the OT and speakers as the wet freq range, whereas the mixer sees the speaker load post IR as one rather equal wave, ie the RDC gain must come up to sound the same because of the shelve mix going to conversion instead of a cab. I have trouble sometimes at the mixer because a certain octave is much louder to pre's than the other portion's and EQ is usually never the answer, it's the problem haha. Great to speaker, rougher direct unfortunately
You have great taste in gear, good luck with your recording. Sorry I'm no help
Thanks -- and I appreciate the comments. I am going to settle on it's working. :)
 

Husky

Member
Messages
11,825
So this one is stumping me. I recently set up my rig for recording. Here's the signal path:

Fender Tele -> Pedalboard -> Two Rock CLRS 100W head -> Suhr RL/IR -> mixer -> computer.

I set all pedal volumes/levels so they are roughly 'even' with the clean level, based on the mixer meters. I can record any of my pedals or combinations with expected consistent results in the computer.

If I go direct to the cab:

Fender Tele -> Pedalboard -> Two Rock CLRS 100W head -> 2x12 cabinet.

All of my pedals behave the same except my RevivalDrive Hot Rod Custom. It is suddenly massively louder than the rest. No settings changes. Given that the levels read similarly in the first example on a mixer that was after the RL/IR, I don't get why I'd see such a significant difference when running into the cab. Any ideas?
Make absolutely sure you are not feeding a Microphone input on the mixer that is a bad level and impedance mismatch. You need to use line level and no direct box either. There are places you can clip that won't show up on a meter.
 

RwP42

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
309
Make absolutely sure you are not feeding a Microphone input on the mixer that is a bad level and impedance mismatch. You need to use line level and no direct box either. There are places you can clip that won't show up on a meter.
Thanks John -- yes, I have confirmed that I am using a line level input on the mixer (and don't have a direct box).
 

Husky

Member
Messages
11,825
Thanks John -- yes, I have confirmed that I am using a line level input on the mixer (and don't have a direct box).
Good because most interfaces default to Mic when using XLR. What is the Mixer and don't you have an interface?
 

RwP42

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
309
Good because most interfaces default to Mic when using XLR. What is the Mixer and don't you have an interface?
I am using a Mackie Pro-FX8, which has a USB A-D converter built-in. I am going in to one of the 1/4" line input from the IR DI/Line Out jack on the RL/IR.
 

Husky

Member
Messages
11,825
I am using a Mackie Pro-FX8, which has a USB A-D converter built-in. I am going in to one of the 1/4" line input from the IR DI/Line Out jack on the RL/IR.
Ok then I don't see any issue. I would probably use TRS since the line in I believe is balanced
 

RwP42

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
309
Ok then I don't see any issue. I would probably use TRS since the line in I believe is balanced
Good suggestion -- I was wondering about that, and will try. Thank you for taking the time to respond! I love the RL/IR (and am lusting after a Classic S right now. :) )
 

crazymauler

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
244
Not sure if this matters or helps, but are you using an IR that’s close to/the same as your actual cabinet and mic/placement?
Also, are you comparing the IR to your mic’d cabinet in a separate & isolated room, listening to both through the same monitors?
 

RwP42

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
309
Not sure if this matters or helps, but are you using an IR that’s close to/the same as your actual cabinet and mic/placement?
Also, are you comparing the IR to your mic’d cabinet in a separate & isolated room, listening to both through the same monitors?
Thank you for the reply -- as noted above, I am not mic'ing a cabinet at all -- just comparing the volume of the RDHRC in the room through the cab, vs the volume set evenly through the mixer.

I am using the IR's recommended by the Two-Rock thread to as closely as possible match the cabinet itself (RL/IR Setting: 34).
 

crazymauler

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
244
Thank you for the reply -- as noted above, I am not mic'ing a cabinet at all -- just comparing the volume of the RDHRC in the room through the cab, vs the volume set evenly through the mixer.

I am using the IR's recommended by the Two-Rock thread to as closely as possible match the cabinet itself (RL/IR Setting: 34).
Gotcha, that makes sense. FWIW I've found that when comparing IR's (through my studio monitors) vs. the cabinet in the room, the sound and experience is quite different, and my pedals behave slightly differently as well (even when dialing up an identical IR to the cab). I chalk it up to anomalies in the room acoustics and my own ear drums that sometimes compress or sometimes exaggerate certain aspects of the tone, not to mention the IR is being virtually mic'd while the in-room cabinet is not. I've had the most fruitful listening/comparing experiences removing as many variables as possible, and it's fun to get the cab in another isolated room mic'd up and compare it to the IR. That's the first thing I did when I got the RLIR and was immediately impressed (astonished, actually).
I absolutely LOVE the Suhr RLIR.
 

RwP42

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
309
Gotcha, that makes sense. FWIW I've found that when comparing IR's (through my studio monitors) vs. the cabinet in the room, the sound and experience is quite different, and my pedals behave slightly differently as well (even when dialing up an identical IR to the cab). I chalk it up to anomalies in the room acoustics and my own ear drums that sometimes compress or sometimes exaggerate certain aspects of the tone, not to mention the IR is being virtually mic'd while the in-room cabinet is not. I've had the most fruitful listening/comparing experiences removing as many variables as possible, and it's fun to get the cab in another isolated room mic'd up and compare it to the IR. That's the first thing I did when I got the RLIR and was immediately impressed (astonished, actually).
I absolutely LOVE the Suhr RLIR.
Good to know -- I am new to IR's, and am impressed so far with how the RLIR reacts to the amp. I had been concerned with how to record my TR (and whether to invest in expensive mics and such), but the results with the RLIR have been really outstanding.
 

G34RSLU7

Member
Messages
1,995
sounds like you might be running your master volume on the two-rock higher with the IR/loadbox and therefore you will have less headroom, if you then kick on a pedal you won't be able to go louder than unity because the amp is already compressing.

try running the amp into the IR/loadbox on the exact same settings as you would use them into your cab.
 

RwP42

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
309
sounds like you might be running your master volume on the two-rock higher with the IR/loadbox and therefore you will have less headroom, if you then kick on a pedal you won't be able to go louder than unity because the amp is already compressing.
try running the amp into the IR/loadbox on the exact same settings as you would use them into your cab.
None of the amp, pedal, or mixer controls are being adjusted. The only change is moving the speaker cable from the RLIR to the speaker cab.
 




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