Question for Jack Zucker

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by Rock Fella, Oct 25, 2004.

  1. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

    Messages:
    20,360
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    Malibu
    So...I dug out the album. And you're wrong the Ebmaj7 is not followed by a F7..it goes straight to the F#7.

    http://www.eddegenaro.com/audio/nofnat.MP3
     
  2. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

    Messages:
    20,705
    Joined:
    May 20, 2003
    Thanks for the clarifcation. I'd be interested if Reese is playing those "maj7" chords with a root a min3rd down making them ii-v chords and not IV-V...Not that it matters much. They're functioning as ii-v chords anyway.
     
  3. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

    Messages:
    36,729
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Jack, you DO group doms together like I do. :) (Or I should say I do it like you do) Maj key..II IV V VII are approach all the same. All the arpeggios\scales work over each other, and all lead you back to the tonic. :) Just different shades\colors of the exact same thing. Same with the I-III-VI Tonic chords. :dude Therefore in the key of C.. The D Dorian, F Lydian, G Mixolidian, B Locrean modes are all the same thing. One big dominat scale. The C Ionian, E Phrygian,and A aolean are one big tonic scale. Nice to know when you are starting, but since you naturally play phrases and arps starting on different notes, who cares? To me, thats why learning bebop lines are so much more important than scales\arps. There all in there in a musical sense!
    Its amazing how few guys realize this., and to me, was such a HUGE key in not only freeing up my playing, but helping make tasty selectons vs non tasteful ones. Nothing worse than accentuating a tonic chord over a dominant area, or Dominant over tonic. That is the KEY to hearing things correctly.
     
  4. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

    Messages:
    20,360
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    Malibu
    Curiois...why do you leabve out subdominant as a function?
    I group everything by their harmonic finction...as in subdominant (needs to move on a bit)...ii-IV
    Dominant (needs to resolve/move a lot-well unless you're Miles) V-vii
    Tonic (at rest) I-iii-vi
     
  5. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

    Messages:
    20,360
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    Malibu
    The first one is a ii-V in terms of harmonic movement, and then it's IV-V, IV-bV...tritone sub for the typical bVI-V-i Blues turn around. But I view it as a VofV, V, i.

    BTW, I thought the guitar port clip I posted of it sounded alright for using EMGs.
     
  6. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

    Messages:
    20,705
    Joined:
    May 20, 2003
    So the bass (pedal) is playing the IV ?
     
  7. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

    Messages:
    36,729
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Location:
    New Jersey


    Subdominat?? Means SUBstitution for a dominant to me. A IImin chord goes right back to the I many times, and Ill play a IV chord against it, a VII chord against it a V chord, or even an altered V to really pull back to the I chord. To me, what you are calling a Sub dominant, is just a miler dominant. Something can be dark red or light red, they are both red. You can also do the reverse and play a II, IV or VII chord agains a V chord. Why make 3 groups out of what are only two?? If you do that, then you may as well say a V chord is different than a V altered. A Flat nine is not as dominant as a flat 9 flat13 chord, which is not as dominant as a b5b9b13 chord. Thats just making things WAY,WAY harder. The less you have to think, the easier it is to play. Either a chord is tonic, or dominant. A third is not as "tonic" sounding as the root, yet its tonic.
     
  8. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

    Messages:
    20,360
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    Malibu
    On the third chord yes.
     
  9. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

    Messages:
    20,360
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    Malibu
    Because of harmoni function. A dominant pretty much wants to go to I...a sub can go either to dominant or tonic.
    A for dominant vs. altered dominant. They usually are used for different harmonic purposes. Dominant when there's a static vamp, altered dom when it's functioning.
     
  10. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

    Messages:
    36,729
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Well any chord can act as a tonic! On a 7 vamp, the 7 chord is a tonic chord! At that point, I would group all the same chords together and view them as tonic. (Example..G7 vamp..D minor, B-7b5, G7 and Fmaj7 are all TONIC chords now. No get out sounds, I would likely superimpose II-Vs going INTO that G7, and alter them. I think that is a big difference between many fusion players an jazz players (not all). Many fusion players will play out my altering the G7...playing G whole tone, G diminished etc. Many jazz players will superimpose changes going INTO the G7, and that to me sounds sweeter and creates more logical movement. (To my ear) I also will use altered G7 lines at times, but that gives a much "harder" and less musical sounding "out" to my ear.

    As far as the "subdominant" not going to a tonic area, where is it going? Give an example and ill show you how I would treat it. If a II chord is going to a III chord, thats dominant to tonic. I would sub a II-V into that in a heartbeat. Say a II A minor going to a III B minor. That to me is dominant to tonic. You can actually play V-I on that. If a IV chord is going to a V, thats the same tonality to my ear.
     
  11. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

    Messages:
    20,360
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    Malibu
    When a ii isn't going to to tonic it's going to dominant.
    When you have a static V chord you still playing over the V chord. It is not suddenly a I chord. If you're think of it modally it'll be mixolydian.
    I understand where you're coming from. But that not withstanding every progression can break down in function to ii-V-I or part thereof.
    I'm not talking about your approach to improvising but rather to how harmony functions. And a ii is different than a V, that's all there is to it.
     
  12. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

    Messages:
    20,360
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    Malibu
    Simply put...things can be broken down to everything being V-I...but not when a ii or IV is present.
    Lets use this as an example...
    i-I-IV-ii-V-i
     
  13. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

    Messages:
    36,729
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Location:
    New Jersey
    We will have to disagree which is fine ! A II is a different shade of the same color as a V to my ear. Both pulling you somewhere, one just harder than the other. If you end a song on a II chord, it will sound unresolved, just like on a V chord.
     
  14. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

    Messages:
    20,360
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Location:
    Malibu
    I have no issue with disagreeing..
     
  15. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

    Messages:
    36,729
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Yes it can! V-I. When you add subdominants, you are just extending the motion and adding subtle shades of color..
     
  16. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

    Messages:
    36,729
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Me either. It all comes out the same in the end anyway. :)
     
  17. Lucidology

    Lucidology Member

    Messages:
    26,309
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Location:
    Monterey, CA

    Reading this blows my mind ...
    I thought I was the only guy on earth who heard those "clams"...
     
  18. Mike T

    Mike T Member

    Messages:
    898
    Joined:
    May 8, 2007
    Nope....you ain't the lone ranger Joe.... it's funny though, cause I never EVER would say that in public for fear of the ramifications.......being that this board is private and only the whole world can see it makes me feel safe though :jo
     
  19. G-Let

    G-Let Member

    Messages:
    115
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2006
    Location:
    Tejas
    Could someone tell some more Yngwie stories? That guy is hilarious when he brings the fooking fury.
     
  20. Lucidology

    Lucidology Member

    Messages:
    26,309
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Location:
    Monterey, CA
    Yo Mike..... whenever I've pointed that out in public there has certainly been ramifications ...
    Have gotten slammed by guys who are into SRV bigtime (or not) ...

    Thanks for the laugh about feeling safe here ... good one ... :BEER
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice