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Question on pedal placement + buffer..

Discussion in 'Effects, Pedals, Strings & Things' started by GloryJones, May 15, 2011.

  1. GloryJones

    GloryJones Member

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    Current order: Turbo Tuner > Compressor (TB) > Tim > BD2 > volume pedal > delay...Definitely need the buffer before the EB Vol pedal, but don't want the BD2 after the TIM. I want the Tim to be the last OD in my chain. Suggestions? Where Else could I put my volume pedal? It needs to be before the delay (Boss delay)...
     
  2. chervokas

    chervokas Member

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    By BD2, I presume you mean the Blues Driver? That is a buffered bypass pedal with a JFET input buffer and a1M ohm input impedance and a 1K ohm output impedance. Therefore you already have a buffer in front of the volume pedal.
     
  3. GloryJones

    GloryJones Member

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    Right, I knew that. I guess what I'm saying is that I'd like the volume pedal elsewhere, and I do not want the Blues Driver AFTER the Tim. Could I put the volume pedal earlier if I had a buffer in front of it? If so, would a buffer like the T1M work?
     
  4. chervokas

    chervokas Member

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    Sure. Pretty much any buffer will work--all a buffer does it present a high impedance input to the guitar and send a constant low impedance signal to the rest of the chain. I think the T1M has a high input impedance. Typical guitar amp input impedance is 1 M ohm. I think the T1M is much, much higher, 10 M ohms IIRC, which will most likely brighten up your tone compared with even going straight into the amp (by raising the amplitude of the resonant peak of the guitar's oscilating circuit), if the T1M is the first buffer in the chain and all the pedals in front of it are off. I'm more inclined to choose a buffer w/ an input impedance identical to the input impedance of my amp to better match my straight-in tone.
     
  5. GloryJones

    GloryJones Member

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    Interesting. Is it bad to have a buffer that late in the chain (after say, 3 or 4 true bypass pedals)? Also, would it be weird to put the Tim AFTER the volume pedal? I know I should try it to see how it is, but I'm looking for opinion..
     
  6. fatsound77

    fatsound77 Member

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    Check this out. Killer sound and tweakability, just did a review thread. www.thru-tone.com. No brittleness or sterile shrill tone. I keep mine up front of my chain as well.
     
  7. chervokas

    chervokas Member

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    Here's the question: why are you using the buffer?

    Are you using it do deal with the resistance loading of guitar circuit by the volume pedal? If so then placing the buffer anywhere in front of the vol pedal, including immediately in front of it, is fine. If you're using it to reduce the capacitance load of the cable on the bypass guitar tone then you'd ideally put the buffer closer to the front of the signal chain. But with only 6 pedals and already one buffer--and depending on the capacitance and length of your cables--the capacitance loading is very, very unlikely to be really problematic, more a matter of taste.

    Too many buffers in a chain can cause problems--a loss of "feel" and "responsiveness." Devices like the Valvulator which place a tube preamp gain stage ahead of a buffer stage are designed to deal with the "feel" problems a buffer can sometimes cause. And in general op-amp based buffers are true unity gain devices while discrete transistor circuits are slightly less than unity gain. Other than that it's my experience that most buffer circuits are basically fine and that there's too much handwringing over "good buffers" and "bad buffers" with most often the sonic differences between buffers being the result of differing input impedances.
     
  8. GloryJones

    GloryJones Member

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    definitely read your review..the mod seems awesome. can't quite afford the $125 though. one day.


    I need the buffer for the volume pedal, basically. I absolutely noticed a difference without a buffer before it. If the buffer is two or three pedals before the Volume Pedal, would that be ok?
     
  9. stinkfoot

    stinkfoot Member

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    If the pedals that sit between the buffer (the BD-2 or a dedicated buffer doesn't matter) and the volume pedal are all true bypass(ed), the buffer output will still "see" the volume pedal. If you turn one of them on, that output stage will instead be responsible for driving the signal. And as long as the output impedance on that pedal is low enough, it'll work just fine.

    Having a permanent buffer (again, be it a dedicated one or the BD-2) right in front of the volume pedal means it will provide a constant impedance signal for the volume pedal input. But with the setup you have, it should work just as well somewhere in the "before the volume pedal" section. And with the BD-2 in that section, there should be no need for a separate buffer unit.
     
  10. chervokas

    chervokas Member

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    Yeah, because a passive volume pedal is like wiring another pot in parallel with the guitar's circuit so it's loading the guitar circuit and causing the dreaded "tone suck". In terms of that it doesn't matter where the buffer is in the chain as long as it's somewhere between the guitar and the volume pedal, as Stinkfoot says. The point is to keep the volume pedal from loading the guitar circuit.
     
  11. GloryJones

    GloryJones Member

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    Alright, thanks for all of your help. I'm mostly looking to kick the BD2 off the board, so the chain would be: Tuner > Compressor > 808 > TIM > Delay > amp (all except delay being true bypass) and the VP in there somewhere. So I guess I do need a buffer in there somewhere, just not sure where it's going yet.

    I'm thinking about having my VP modded to have a buffer in it, so I can run it second after the Tuner. Then that would be my main buffer. Thoughts on this?
     
  12. chops612

    chops612 Member

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    If you went with the mod you would want to use it as your buffer, especially if you want the VP up front. Thats the point of it! Tweakable transparent input buffer to get the perfect sound up front, isolated buffer out for the tuner, and separate output buffer designed to drive very long cable runs. The other point is to allow you to use your tuner out so you don't have to run your signal through the tuna and stomp it on and off.
     
  13. stinkfoot

    stinkfoot Member

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    If you're kicking the BD-2 off the board, replacing it with a dedicated buffer unit would be good. It would need to go in front of the volume pedal (obviously), but doesn't have to sit right before it. So if you plan on running the VP right after the tuner, simply stick a buffer (the T1M mini one is excellent) right before the volume pedal. It'll be the same thing as having the VP modded to have an internal buffer, btw.
     
  14. DigitalHater

    DigitalHater Member

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    Thoughts? I like my volume pedal after dirt, before delay, for best echo swells. The volume pot on my guitar is what I use to adjust how hard I hit my OD/distortion pedals, but I get the vibe you would like to do this with your volume pedal.

    Secondary thoughts....Without any fuzz pedal issues (which determines where my buffer goes) I would stick it in there first.
     
  15. GloryJones

    GloryJones Member

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    Thanks guys. I'm really only using the VP for occasional swell during songs, and a violin effect during solos. what are the benefits of putting the VP before the gain pedals vs after? I was planning on having it modded for a buffer to put early in the chain as the main buffer..How would putting it after my dirt pedals (with a buffer before, of course) affect the overall sound?
     
  16. chops612

    chops612 Member

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    Not true. Totally different. While a buffer in front will help, it only solves one issue. The Tuner out won't be isolated so the input buffer of the tuner can have an impact on the sweep of the pot, in addition to the change of impedance by just running a buffer up front. Also without an output buffer the volume pedal won't sweep consistently with every effect as you are running a variable 0-250K in parallel with who knows what the next pedals input impedance is... My mod will isolate each output from each other making it so nothing interferes with the function of the pedal and tone of your signal. It is also designed to give a perfect feeling sweep, which won't be altered by different rigs and pedal orders.
     
  17. chervokas

    chervokas Member

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    Well, obviously, if you put it in front of dirty, when you pedal back the volume you won't be hitting the dirt pedal as hard and you'll clean up the tone. If that's what you're going for that will work. But if you want to lower the volume on your dirty tone you'll want the VP after dirt.
     
  18. chops612

    chops612 Member

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    I also use mine primarily for swelling effect, and your over swells will bloom better if you use it up front as it will gain up gradually as you get louder. Swell's post gain don't have the same feel as they have a master volume effect. Great for users who like to ride their volume pedal through a show for controlling volume. I just like it up front because I want it to function just like an extension of my guitar. Grab a trem arm with ur hand and control the volume by foot, etc. All personal preference though.
     

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