quick CAGED/fretboard question

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by driches, Jan 18, 2008.


  1. driches

    driches Member

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    i'm trying to practice CAGED; right now what i'm doing is for each major and minor triad, i'm diagramming where all the positions are, starting with E-B-G strings, up the neck, then B-G-D strings, then G-D-A string, etc.


    i just started, and working with the 3 treble strings (E B G), it looks like, pattern-wise, the "C" and "D" shapes share the position. in other words, the sequence would go C/D--A---G--E--D/C---A--G--E--D/C--and so on.

    for example, working with the G major triad (G-B-D), on the first three strings, you could play it at the 7th fret as 7-8-7 along those strings. but, in the pattern, that seems to account for both the D and C shapes; after that, the next usable shape on those strings is 10-12-12, which is the A shap.

    does that make sense? is that correct?
     
  2. Elektrik_SIxx

    Elektrik_SIxx Member

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    Makes perfect sense, but althought the triad shapes for C and D form are the same on the treble strings, you could start to see the difference if you add the bass note to it. for example:

    take the C triad at the 12th fret 12-13-12: If you add the bass note at the tenth fret/4th string then you have the D-form of the C-chord.
    If you add the bass note at the 15th fret/ 5th string, you get the exact same C bass note but now you're viewing from out of the C-shape.

    Hope this clears it up somewhat?
     
  3. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Member

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    OK, I think I understad your point. First off, let me say that I didn't learn the CAGED shapes through any book, I learned them on my own so this my differ from someone's lesson plans.

    What sixx said. To expand- here's the D shape for an F chord:

    1)5
    2)6
    3)5
    4)3
    5)
    6)


    Here's the one based on a C shape:

    1)5
    2)6
    3)5
    4)7
    5)8
    6)

    They may seem the same, but the point is what position you'd play them in. For instance, here's a scale based off the D shape:

    1)3-5-6
    2)3-5-6
    3)3-5
    4)3-5-7
    5)
    6)

    And here's one from the C shape:

    1)5-6-8
    2)5-6-8
    3)5-7-8
    4)5-7-8
    5)8
    6)

    So one is based in the 3rd position on the neck, and the other the 5th position. When working with this stuff it's important to know where the root is of each chord like Sixx said, and also to know what each note is in relation to the root- 3rd, 5th, etc. If you know these things it will make it much easier to make scales from these shapes, alter these shapes to build other chords and scales, etc.
     
  4. Mark Wein

    Mark Wein Member

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    I have a lesson series on the CAGED system on my website...see if this helps...

    CAGED system primer:

    http://premierguitarlessons.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=28

    Triad Construction (you might need to do the major scale lessons first if you don't know them in the CAGED patterns already for this to make sense):

    http://premierguitarlessons.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=28

    The order of the rest of the lessons can be found here:

    http://premierguitarlessons.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49&Itemid=28
     
  5. Tom Gross

    Tom Gross Member

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    This is the crux of the biscuit. It's definitely where you gotta go with all of this. Shapes are of very little help if you don't know where the root and degrees are.
     
  6. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    Here's my CAGED rap

    I know I've posted this before and we are supposed to be
    creative with our posts, but it's a good explanation that I'm working at
    making better.

    So, here is a good way to exploit the CAGED Chord System....

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    The CAGED Chord System is a clever way to understand how chords
    relate to the fretboard.


    First of all, you don't need a zillion words to discribe the CAGED Chord System, keep it simple.

    For the most part, the 5 CAGED chord shapes are simply TWO intervalic shapes.

    Here are the 5 CAGED Shapes

    ......C.......A......G.......E.......D

    |---0----3----8----8-----12-|-|
    |---1----5----5----8-----13-|-|
    |---0----5----5----9-----12-|-|
    |---2----5----5----10----10-|-|
    |---3----3----7----10-------|-|
    |-------------8----8--------|-|

    Now, let's create practical 4 note structures from it.

    .....C.......A......G.....loE.....hiE........D... ..
    |------------------------8-----12-|-|
    |---1----5---------------8-----13-|-|
    |---0----5----5----9-----9-----12-|-|
    |---2----5----5----10---10-----10-|-|
    |---3----3----7----10-------------|-|
    |-------------8----8--------------|-|



    The above G shape, C shape, and High E shape all share the
    same intervalic structure of

    R
    5
    3
    R

    .......G............C.........hi E

    |-----------------8--|
    |----------1------8--|
    |---5------0------9--|
    |---5------2------10-|
    |---7------3---------|
    |---8----------------|
    = same chord, same note arrangement R,3,5,R

    One more observation, they all slant downward to the left. like this \



    The other chord structure. is the one that slants to the right. like this /

    ....lo E.........A.........D
    |----------------12-|
    |----------5-----13-|
    |---9------5-----12-|
    |---10-----5-----10-|
    |---10-----3--------|
    |---8---------------|
    = same chord, same note arrangement R,5,R,3

    3
    R
    5
    R


    So, only two chord structures.

    In this system, we have the Root (R) in the bass, and that bass note is on the 6th, 5th, and 4th strings, or,the lowest note in the chord.

    Notice that each of these "bass/Root strings" generate,from their "lowest note position", only two chords interval shapes.
    One that slants this way \ ,, and one that slants this way /

    ...................R.............................3

    .......................5....................R

    ...........................3..........5

    .................................R

    Once you realize these fundamental "inner structures" in the CAGED Chord System you can;

    1. Change the fundamental to "other" chord structures,iow, make other types of chords. very simply.

    2. Create an appropriate scale for your newly formed chord. scales come
    from the chord and its function, not the other way around.

    3. Have a system that requires minimal "thinking". Very important when playing.

    Anyway, I hope I've explained this clearly to you. And I hope you see how cool it is.

    For simplicities sake.
     
  7. Tom Gross

    Tom Gross Member

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    I like that.
     
  8. SnidelyWhiplash

    SnidelyWhiplash Supporting Member

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    My guitar teacher taught me me the CAGED system. She made it simple
    & easy to understand. It was described as akin to phone #'s. The A,E,
    & D were R5R35R. The C & G were R35R3R.
     
  9. driches

    driches Member

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    thanks for all the responses; it's definitely clearer to me...

    it makes sense why the C and D shapes would share forms like that because of the bass notes involved. it seems that, having done a little bit on the B-G-D strings, with each 4 string set, two patterns will necessarily share a formation like that; for example, on B-G-D, it seems that the A and G shapes share notes.

    and Clifford D, your two-shape theory makes sense to me, i follow it, but can't really see how i can apply that musically or just to help understand the fretboard better.

    i see the value in learning the intervals and where the R, 3, and 5 are in each shape, but is there a good practical way to go about learning that?
     
  10. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Member

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    Unless I'm mis-understanding you, that's not correct.


    Yeah, that's right.

    First off, do you know the notes on the fretboard? If I asked you to play a Bb on the 'D' string, would you know where it was?

    If not, I'll give you my recommendation for learning this, and if you know it already maybe it can help somebody else. Start with the low 'E' string. Don't try and memorize every note/fret, start with all the naturals (as in no sharps or flats). So the open string is of course, E. Then this:

    Code:
    open -E
    1st  -F
    2nd  -x
    3rd  -G   
    4th  -x
    5th  -A
    6th  -x
    7th  -B
    8th  -C
    9th  -x
    10th -D
    11th -x
    12th -E
    
    
    So get that down, then move to the 'A' string:

    Code:
    open -A
    1st  -x
    2nd  -B
    3rd  -C 
    4th  -x
    5th  -D
    6th  -x
    7th  -E
    8th  -F
    9th  -x
    10th -G
    11th -x
    12th -A
    

    So you're got two down. Here's where a little trick comes in- for the next string you don't need to straight memorize. Here's the trick- this:

    1)
    2)
    3)
    4)5
    5)
    6)3

    Is an octave. They're both the note G, but an octave apart. Same with this:

    1)
    2)
    3)12
    4)
    5)10
    6)

    ...both the same note, just and octave apart. So, when trying to find the notes on the 'D' or 'G' string you can think of the note on the low 'E' or 'A', two frets up. You can extend this to the 'B' string as well, but it's a different shape:

    1)
    2)8
    3)
    4)5
    5)
    6)

    And here's from the 'D' string to the high 'E':

    1)3
    2)
    3)
    4)5
    5)
    6)

    Anyway, if you look at these CAGED shapes you'll see that their all closely related to the octave shapes. There's a number of ways to learn the rest of the notes in the chord- you could straight memorize them. Myself, I see the intervals in shapes, just like octaves. For example:

    1)
    2)
    3)
    4)
    5)--2
    6)3

    If the first note (G) is the root, the next is the 3rd. This would be a 5th:

    1)
    2)
    3)
    4)
    5)--5
    6)3

    This is a 3rd here:

    1)
    2)
    3)--4
    4)5
    5)
    6)

    And so is this:

    1)
    2)----12
    3)12
    4)
    5)
    6)

    This is a 5th:

    1)
    2)
    3)--7
    4)5
    5)
    6)

    And so is this:

    1)
    2)--3
    3)
    4)5
    5)
    6)

    I think once you know which notes are the root from looking at the octave shapes the rest will fall into place.
     
  11. SnidelyWhiplash

    SnidelyWhiplash Supporting Member

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    I made a mistake,it has been corrected.
     
  12. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    Well those two intervalic chord shapes do exist in the CAGED System.

    It shouldn't be any harder than any other rap regarding this concept.

    The value depends on how well you read the "MAP"

    And your "ears"
     
  13. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    My understanding is phone numbers have 7 digits.

    The best we can do on the geetar is 6 digits. So I don't get that.

    Please explain?
     
  14. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Member

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    Here's an A form (the strings are listed above):
    Code:
    1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
     5   R   5   R   3   5
    
    
    and here's an E form:

    Code:
    1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
     R   5   R   3   5   R
    As you can see, in terms of intervals they're spelled differently.
     

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